Let's Make a Game

[Ben24x7]

75 replies later...   ...its done! Woo!

 

Admittedly, if you wish to continue with this game, I would love to help out. It looks great!

[BobaFett2]

http://gyazo.com/8a310ec66ed1bf47e0f1dc7f4b648b2b

My screen resolution seems to break half of anything that is on my computer, even though it's the only one that's recommended and looks good on the computer.

[rioforce]

Awesome, that was great. With a bit of teamwork (and a lot of coding from Jimbob), a game was created. Even though it is small, it's still very cool.

 

On a side note, I forgot to send you the fixed mountain images. They loop properly now instead of having that akward seam in the middle. Here are the updated pictures:

 

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[McJobless]

This project gives me many mixed feelings. I can't come here with the opinion of a real critic, since this isn't a real game project, but....

 

I appreciate that everybody put effort into this, but I simply can't find anything to be glowing about except for the fact that it was a team effort. At first I had a bit of a chuckle at the initial posts and the inexperience of the team, but as things progressed I started to see and feel a lot of things, since I was being reminded of how a younger me thought game development went, and I got really depressed about this.

 

A few key issues I've found:

• I don't think this can be called a game. It's an experiment. It's a team effort. It was a collaborative project. It is not, however, a game. There is no clear goal, there is no reward/feedback for completing the one goal of the game, there is only one obstacle and the boundaries of the game are not clearly defined. A good game lets you know exactly what your goal is (also remember, Show Don't Tell), rewards you for completing the goal, throws challenges towards you to prevent you completing the goal, and clearly defined the area of play.
• There is no way to respawn after death except with a hard reset. This is a cardinal sin of game design and something that is strictly forbidden in most TRCs (it's considered an "A Class Bug", which means that it prevents the player from continuing the game, and therefore the developer is not allowed to ship the game until it is resolved). If your player dies, reset them at the start of the stage and/or refresh the game.
• At the start, you added about half a screen worth of "junk space". Junk Space is area that is within game-bounds, but players cannot traverse it because they are blocked by either an invisible wall or props. Junk Space is frustrating, and players get confused about what is on the other side of the screen that you won't let them traverse. Always start your player to the left-most of the screen.
• The one enemy's collision only allows you to kill him by hitting the top of his antenna (I did multiple tests on this). This is an example of unfair gameplay. In Fruit Ninja, because people's fingers usually become very large when they press them against the screen, they increase the collision radius of the fruit, and decrease the collision radius of the bombs. It makes the experience better for the players. You should consider making the experience fun, instead of just making an enemy with "realistic" collision.
• The coins are essentially meaningless. Their placement is sporadic and confusing. Economy is usually used for two gameplay concepts; "leading" and "challenge". Coins that are placed for "leading" tell the player where to go. The first line of coins were correctly leading, but there were too many of them and they were too close together, so they felt very forced and silly. Coins that are placed for "challenge" are supposed to give the player a mini-goal of reaching those coins, leading to deeper gameplay. You lacked this challenge except in one instance which I will talk about in the next point.
• The House presented a massive issue. There is a gold 100-coin on the roof of the house. Collecting it requires you to jump to it first before you jump to the ground or through the hole in the house. Challenge doesn't work when your player cannot have multiple attempts at a puzzle. It becomes "frustrating", and a frustrated player soon becomes "bored" and quits. You need to add an alternate way of getting the gold coin in the event that the player falls down the hole. It's unfair to have items which can only be acquired if the player magically anticipates the answer to the question they haven't been asked yet. To elaborate; every element of gameplay is a question. Players have the responsibility of giving answers to those questions. We are basically making very fun school tests, but ones that players/students can attempt over and over again until they get it right and feel proud of themselves for it.
• The music was unfortunately slightly annoying, and made me want to shut my speakers off after 3 loops of it. If that was yours, Drill Master, I need you to contact me ASAP so I can discuss a few things with you privately.
• While I am satisfied that you added feedback for the enemy's death (the squash animation), it was slightly ridiculous, and more important it made no sense. You don't have platforms like Mario. The enemy can't fall off the ground.
• Ben24x7's animations were lackluster at best. Again, I appreciate you put effort into them, but they were not properly keyed and were very choppy (at least to me who has done an animation course). Furthermore, the character looks like he is taking a furious dump every time you make him jump. I don't want to perform game actions if it feels like I'm hurting the player character.

There was more I was disappointed with, and I could go into numerous tirades about the way you guys approached this game from a project management perspective, but I will not since this was just a bit of fun for all involved.

 

The point is, keep practicing, but please start to test your games more, and actually appreciate the importance of game theories and why games work and are fun. You guys have a very long way to go, and currently this project is on about the same level as those 3D LEGO fan games I regularly rip apart.

 

EDIT: Oops! Forgot to point out three glaring bugs I found:

1. I died by falling onto the enemy on my first go, and on the second run through of the game, the enemy disappeared completely. He came back every other time, but for some reason he didn't appear at all on my second go.
2. When you die, you die in the exact spot you were hit. That means you can hover in mid-air. Move the player to the ground plane.
3. I'm getting the same problem as BobaFett2; on a monitor with 1920x1080p resolution, there is a s***-ton of black space. The game should be full-screened, which should be easy in Flash.

EDIT 2:

 

I have to mention this. Going through the game code, I came across this little gem:

//If player is touching enemy and above it
                if(world.player.y <= (EnemyObj.y - (EnemyObj.height / 2) - (world.player.height / 2)) + 10) {
                    //Kill enemy
                    EnemyObj.scaleY = 0.5;
                    var enemyTwn:Tween = new Tween(EnemyObj, "y", Strong.easeOut, EnemyObj.y, (EnemyObj.y + 500), 80, false);
                    enemyTwn.addEventListener(TweenEvent.MOTION_FINISH, onFinish);
                    function onFinish(e:TweenEvent):void {
                        enemyTwn.removeEventListener(TweenEvent.MOTION_FINISH, onFinish);
                        EnemyObj.parent.removeChild(EnemyObj);
                    }
                    //Play sound
                    enemyFootDeath.play(40);
                    //And update score
                    updateScore(50);
                }

So instead of making a very simple to do collision sphere/cube, you went with a rather badly designed alternative that detects if the player is 10 units above or something to that affect? You can't do that my man.

Edited March 24, 2015 by McJobless

[Fluffy Cupcake]

@McJobless; No this is not a game yet, but rather it is a base upon which a game can be built.

---

There seems to be a random bug (yes, it doesn't happen all the time. Cause is unknown) that [upon refreshing] when you land around the area in the house the enemy up ahead off-screen dies.

Speaking of, the collision box on the enemy needs to be improved a bit, me thinks.

 

---

Yeah, just to be on the safe side I'm looking for sounds that are royalty free.

Well that knocks out 85% of my sound collection. Honestly though, I've seen loads of non-profit things use resources from games with no trouble or takedowns (All the countless fan-games anyone?). It's only when profit happens that problems occur, or when some game gets really, I mean, EXTREMELY popular that millions play it, which to say the least I doubt will ever happen with this (and if so, sounds would be changed before that point).

 

Speaking of sounds, how about some bird sounds for ambient?

https://www.freesound.org/people/tigersound/sounds/9325/

https://www.freesound.org/people/cajo/sounds/34207/

https://www.freesound.org/people/tbpzurdo/sounds/240122/

https://www.freesound.org/people/supercell10/sounds/266832/

Bird sounds I had laying around my computer out of the VG section - https://www.dropbox.com/s/ry345ox7d5n98kz/Birds.zip?dl=0, you don't have to use them all.

Do put a random delay timer between the chirps, unless using this alternate 40 second ambient track - https://www.dropbox.com/s/c3tn41xoyxho1jz/summer%20grassland.OGG?dl=0

 

And perhaps some wind to go with it? (Do lower the volume on this greatly if used)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1hiald2vis6luxj/Mountain%20Wind.wav?dl=0

 

Can I request a music mute toggle button for the time being? I like to have the game open while looking for sfx. =P

[McJobless]

@McJobless; No this is not a game yet, but rather it is a base upon which a game can be built.

Not once in this thread was that mentioned. In fact, it was said;

It is complete. In just 10 days, we have produced a working game from scratch!

If this was just a framework, I'm sure Jimbob would have worked on it by himself with programmer art and only posted when he was ready to start designing a game out of it.

Speaking of, the collision box on the enemy needs to be improved a bit, me thinks.

As I mentioned, there is no collision box. It simply checks your position relative to the enemy.

[Fluffy Cupcake]

@McJobless; No this is not a game yet, but rather it is a base upon which a game can be built.

Not once in this thread was that mentioned. In fact, it was said;

Well it has been now.

Not by the officialman JJ though.

 

On another note, let me start by quoting a small section from the OP.

2) Let me define "game". When I say game here, I'm talking at its most basic technicality, let's make a game featuring a character who can move and jump, maybe swing a sword too.

So going by JJ's terms, the definition of 'game' you described above is well beyond what the term 'game' being described here is. Making us both at fault here, and your whole long rant about how this is not a 'game' invalid.

 

Speaking of, the collision box on the enemy needs to be improved a bit, me thinks.

As I mentioned, there is no collision box. It simply checks your position relative to the enemy.

Eheh... yeah. I did start my reply before yours was posted, but I took forever to post because of my search for sounds. =P

[McJobless]

On another note, let me start by quoting a small section from the OP.

2) Let me define "game". When I say game here, I'm talking at its most basic technicality, let's make a game featuring a character who can move and jump, maybe swing a sword too.

So going by JJ's terms, the definition of 'game' you described above is well beyond what the term 'game' being described here is. Making us both at fault here, and your whole long rant about how this is not a 'game' invalid.

 

Absolutely incorrect.

JJ's description of the term "game" referred to the physical content and activities within the gameplay. He did not at all discuss the definition of "game", nor did he discuss anything to do with goals, challenges and boundaries.

 

I'm pointing out to him that what he has constructed does not constitute as the classical definition of a game, and that while it may meet his physical requirements, it still shouldn't be classified as a proper game. It's an example or an interactive experience, but it lacks the content required to be considered a proper game.

 

EDIT: More importantly, the whole point of me describing what a game is to Jimbob was so that he could learn for the future on how to improve his design work and build something more interesting, or improve this project. I'm not having a go "for the fun of it". I'm trying to raise a serious point to help the people who worked on this.

[Fush]

[Fluffy Cupcake]

He did not at all discuss the definition of "game"

 

I'm pointing out to him that what he has constructed does not constitute as the classical definition of a game, and that while it may meet his physical requirements, it still shouldn't be classified as a proper game. It's an example or an interactive experience, but it lacks the content required to be considered a proper game.

EDIT: More importantly, the whole point of me describing what a game is to Jimbob was so that he could learn for the future on how to improve his design work and build something more interesting, or improve this project. I'm not having a go "for the fun of it". I'm trying to raise a serious point to help the people who worked on this.

In the term of the widely known use of the definition game, yes, that is correct, he did not discuss that certain aspect.

I see, perhaps I should of re-read carefully what you said originally to clearly get your point. I didn't after all think you were doing that long post just for the fun of it.

[Ben24x7]

 

• Ben24x7's animations were lackluster at best. Again, I appreciate you put effort into them, but they were not properly keyed and were very choppy (at least to me who has done an animation course). Furthermore, the character looks like he is taking a furious dump every time you make him jump. I don't want to perform game actions if it feels like I'm hurting the player character

 

The choppiness of the animation was because, obviously, the human hand was not created to make perfect copies. The application I used doesn't have a 'copy' and 'paste' function, so everything has to be done hand made.

 

For the jump, I didn't feel people would say about that.

 

 

Also, if you are getting sick and tired of this being called a "Game" as well as critiquing its elements then why didn't you join in and actually help us by giving us direction to make this a better "Game" in your image?

[McJobless]

The choppiness of the animation was because, obviously, the human hand was not created to make perfect copies. The application I used doesn't have a 'copy' and 'paste' function, so everything has to be done hand made.

Actually, when I was taught it was drilled into us that copy/paste were tools of the devil, and that a good animator is able to carefully reconstruct what they did over and over again. We were allowed to use the onion skin, however.

You should draw line-guides for yourself, to keep the head, body and limb scales correct. And as I said, learn about key-framing. You want to time your animations so you have the most important keys (there's like 3 or 5 specific poses that are extremely important (aka 'key') to a walk cycle), and then add inbetweens which make the image softer/smoother. Obviously, not too many inbetweens so-as to make the animation slow, but enough to make the motion seem a bit more blurred and natural. 

 

For the jump, I didn't feel people would say about that.

I think even you have to admit his facial expression looks really odd

 

Also, if you are getting sick and tired of this being called a "Game"

Stop. I'm not. What I said was that I wanted to clearly define what a "game" is for the future. I'm not raging that people are mistaking the definition. I'm just giving a bit of guidance for designers who are interested in what makes a fun game vs. a boring one.

 

as well as critiquing its elements then why didn't you join in and actually help us by giving us direction to make this a better "Game" in your image?

Not to bore you with the details of my life, but if you want to know what's going on;

 

I'm making 1 game as part of a group, an entire 3D character (designed with hundreds of drawings, story-written, 3D sculpted and then modified in a modeling program, UV-wrapped and textured with diffuse, specular, normal and other maps, rigged with painted weights, and then finally animated) and 2 massive artworks (one could cost me $3000 and 3 days of construction time). I also have a job/internship writing articles and in my spare time I'm working on that Ultra Agents game idea and I'm working on my Computer Science and Psychology courses for Harvard Online.

 

That's not the reason I won't join, however. I can't be a part of a team like this. I need a very specific structure/hierarchy, I need deadlines and I'm a bit of a control freak, which is against the nature of this kind of project you guys are doing. I also don't like making 2D games, I dislike using Flash/ActionScript and I right now am trying to focus on learning to program over practicing design skills, because I want to have both. I'm unsuited to this project.

[Jimbob]

Firstly, thank you for your comments McJobless, I will definitely take those into account should we take this game to the next step. I can't believe, for example, that I didn't think of using hit boxes on the enemies! I guess I was just too caught up in using object hit testing with the environment. However, you've done exactly what I was afraid some members here would do. I tried so hard to explain how primitive I expected this game to be, so hard that it made my head hurt, but it seems it still wasn't enough to convey the message across completely. As Xiron pointed out, I redefined "game" for the purposes of this project. And in doing so, I think we far exceeded what I expected us to produce.

 

I have to say that I'm a little disheartened. I've always looked up to you as a brilliant, intelligent man, and an inspirational game designer - and of course that hasn't changed - but I suppose I was expecting your support on this project; that you'd see it as the baby's first steps that it is. I stand by the way I approached it. I felt that if I put such standards as you seem to have on this game, people would be put off producing it. And if we did get people on board, it wouldn't have the enthusiasm that we've had over the past 10 days. By setting the standards of the game so low, it ensures that people are proud of the outcome regardless of how it compares to AAA and/or Indie games out there. I'm sure you of all people know how much community projects on RRU can flunk if they are made too big, so I decided to make this as small as it could feasibly be and still be technically regarded as a "game".

 

This game was made deliberately small, as a prototype, in part so that I could evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of those who took part. I can now say that:

• Ben24x7 has the ability to produce multiple drawings in a short space of time, with consistency. His art style is something I've always admired and one that I think is quite unique to the games industry. I don't think his animations were too bad either, in fact I was impressed. That said, I did have to do a bit of editing on his images to properly import them into the game. For example, they had to be resized and cleaned up around the edges.
• Drill Master put together a wonderful piece of music. To be blunt, I think your comments on it were harsh. It fit the criteria I gave DM very well as it was cheerful, and as an added bonus it fit the environment's visuals very well too. DM was also able to take on board my criticism and change the music, and being able to respond positively to someone else's opinions is always a great boon.
• MaelstromIslander showed a lot of enthusiasm toward the project (not that others didn't), producing much more than I had asked for. It's always great to have a wide range of concepts to choose from, and Mael's plethora of coin designs did just that. His characters, while perhaps taking my request for one of Mario's Goombas a bit too literally, were very much his own creation and had a lot of life in them. The only prominent downside I can come up with is that his drawings were a little pixellated in comparison to the other artists here.
• rioforce's drawings were bright and very easy on the programming, as they were already set up such that minimal effort was needed to add them into the game. He provided me with a nice array of elements that competently fit the bill I requested, and clearly put a lot of effort in, so I am pleased to have him as one of our artists too.
• And I don't think that my programming was too bad, considering I wrote it from scratch myself. There was a glaring problem with the enemy hit testing, but aside from that I think the game performed its functions adequately enough.
• Plus we have more people signed on who I have yet to assign roles too!

I'm a firm believer in supporting people by building them up, not pointing out their issues. Of course people won't learn from the mistakes if said mistakes aren't pointed out in the first place, but science proves that if people are happy they work far harder. Pixar has a mentality built around its employees, it's always easy to see the love and care put into their productions and this shines out from the heart of the company being in its people. They care about every one of their employees and through this they have managed to establish themselves as a film company loved worldwide and known for the quality of its movies. With this in mind, I wanted to let people produce what they were comfortable with for this first prototype. By giving each member involved the freedom to produce whatever they were comfortable with, while we may have ended up with a somewhat unrelated set of assets, I was able to see the best of the people involved and can now work with that.

 

The next step of this "Let's Make a Game" project was to take it up a notch, to produce a proper first level. I had already planned it out a couple of days after we started. If people wanted to continue, I was going to establish a hierarchy, as you suggested, and ask for two new roles - a Level Designer and a Theme Designer, who would design the levels and create a set story/theme respectively. With the Theme Designer passing down their idea for the game, the Art, Music and Sound people would have direction in what they should produce, and the project would be much more unified. Then it would just be a case of layering the art, music and sfx over the Level Designer's framework, adding in any new programming that may be necessary, so that we'd finally have a proper first level. And that's a key point, I still planned to create just the one complete level, so that it was more than achievable. But to do this I wanted to ensure I had the enthusiasm of the people on the project first, and I wanted to prove to them that we could do it. That's what this prototype was all about.

 

Here's a video to explain my inspiration behind this project. Compare what we've produced to that, and hopefully people should see it in a better light.

[Yajmo]

It's funny because I was just about to link to that same video. Extra Credits has some interesting stuff sometimes.

[BobaFett2]

I agree with McJobless on most points.

 

That said, if the 'game' (I don't think it qualifies as one yet, since there is no goal and an artificial stopping point with no open-ended gameplay) is expanded further, the challenge coin is one of the better ideas, since making stuff that the player might not get the first time around (and therefore has to retry to get) are an important feature in a lot of games.

 

When it comes to music, I prefer games that start giving you the option to turn off the sound before any game sound comes on (because I prefer my own music to game sounds 99% of the time) as well as the option to change whether it's on/off with a button.

 

Still, I saw this as more of a practice thing than anything, so I hesitate to criticize the artistic merits of Ben's work (a lot of effort could be put towards consistency and learning the basics of animation) or the haphazard nature of many little bits.