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Hoithebest

LEGO Racers Online

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Cyrem

This video should give Lr1 modding more attention... :D

 

EDIT:

Something doesn't feel right. I have some questions:

- How does the client work? (I mean how can you join a game?) do you send "commands" with the host ip or what?

- How can you host a server? did you used a modded client or you made your own program to host the game?

 

And now for the skeptical question:

- Isn't that possible to make this video by changing Captain redbeard's path? :

I can guess a few of those

1. I'd assume at this point you simply specify and IP:Port, I doubt they are up to any sort of lobby system.

2. It would be it's own program and it basically manages player positions via memory editing.

3. It's possible to do it via a path change, but then why is his direction not changing? Cause: His x/y is being set by the program and direction is hard to just "guess".

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MaelstromIslander

And now for the skeptical question: - Isn't that possible to make this video by changing Captain redbeard's path? :

 

I have no idea why you guys think someone would go this far into coding just to pull a practical prank.

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Almogzxp

 

And now for the skeptical question: - Isn't that possible to make this video by changing Captain redbeard's path? :

 

I have no idea why you guys think someone would go this far into coding just to pull a practical prank.

 

 

First of all, I'm the only one (so far) who think that someone would go this far just to pull a prank. and I have a reason: It happened to me before. I hate to waiting for something just to find out it's fake. D:

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Cyrem

 

First of all, I'm the only one (so far) who think that someone would go this far just to pull a prank. and I have a reason: It happened to me before. I hate to waiting for something just to find out it's fake. D:

 

 

Thats unfortunate, but I don't believe any modder on RRU has done something like this before and so far projects have been legitimate. Really if you wanted to prank something, you'd be better off doing it on a popular game to get more people.

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Hoithebest

How can I convince people if even a video is not enough proof?

 

However, to answer some of the above questions:

 

How does it work?
We indeed do have a Client and a Server. The Client reads the addresses and sends them to the Server. The Server holds the information of all the players and sends them back to all the Clients. The Client then writes them back to the in-game players (enemies 1-5). This is a seperate program and does not modify the game files or anything.

 

Currently, there is no lobby or something. Once you started the Server, you can join with the Client. When you and your enemy are both in the game, the process will start. It's not that smart yet to actually know that you are playing in the same 'room'. For example, if I am playing level 1 and your enemy is playing level 2, this will actually work since the addressess will be the same, but this is not right at all. But as I said, the system is not smart enough and is still in a very early stage.

 

I have said this before, but I want to make this project open source but I am still not satisfied with the code yet.

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Xir

How can I convince people if even a video is not enough proof?

No forcing here, but share it with someone trusted like an administrator or moderator and have them report back to the non-believers? I know this sounds kind of ridiculous when I'm saying this, because it is, all because some people aren't very trustworthy of new members.

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Alcom Isst

How can I convince people if even a video is not enough proof?

 

It's just one crazy skeptical guy... err... robot. Several of us have been speculating successfully on how this project works and celebrating its development.

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Cyrem

There's really nothing to be skeptical over, what is being done is technically possible to do. and is being done.

 

Just take it as a compliment ;)

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Almogzxp

 

How can I convince people if even a video is not enough proof?

 

It's just one crazy skeptical guy... err... robot. Several of us have been speculating successfully on how this project works and celebrating its development.

 

I'm still here you know -_-

and I'm not crazy, I'm realistic. "Lego racers online" is the first complete mod we've ever seen (for Lr1), and since we don't really have the tools to make anything close to that (The best thing we can do so far Is modding the textures) I doubt that someone else can.

 

I actually expected for a video that shows how the client and the server works... and he gave us gameplay instead. Just sayin'.

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Quisoves Potoo

"Lego racers online" is the first complete mod we've ever seen (for Lr1), and since we don't really have the tools to make anything close to that (The best thing we can do so far Is modding the textures) I doubt that someone else can. I actually expected for a video that shows how the client and the server works... and he gave us gameplay instead. Just sayin'.

 

I don't see how it's beyond Rock Raiders United's capabilities. We are capable of viewing LR1's virtual memory (with Grappiegovert's coordinate viewer, for example,) and while I can't recall offhand if any member-made programs exist that edit that memory, it seems like a logical next step from there. The LR2 coordinate viewer can actually teleport the player, so I imagine that such jiggery-pokery is just as possible for the original.

It's a comparatively simple task: Create a program that transfers a player's data (coordinates, rotation, car, minifig, name) to a server, from whence it is sent to the other racers' computers to replace the data for an NPC racer.

 

As for the video, couldn't a functional client and server be faked just as easily, if not more easily, than gameplay?

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Cyrem

 

 I can't recall offhand if any member-made programs exist that edit that memory, it seems like a logical next step from there.

 

My own tool, Cafeteria for LRR modifies memory.

A memory editor isn't that hard to make, it's certainly not trivial (look at the zillions of game trainers). All his tool does is reads points in memory that stores the position of the racers, then sends that data to a next client which then their client overwrites the position of one of the racers in their game with the position that came from the server.

 

This is not a LR1 mod like the general file changes, it's a program that manages the game memory.

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Hoithebest

Exactly as the above two comments. I just don't want to show it because it's in a very early stage, but maybe I will make a video of it some time in the (near) future.

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Almogzxp

 

"Lego racers online" is the first complete mod we've ever seen (for Lr1), and since we don't really have the tools to make anything close to that (The best thing we can do so far Is modding the textures) I doubt that someone else can. I actually expected for a video that shows how the client and the server works... and he gave us gameplay instead. Just sayin'.

 

I don't see how it's beyond Rock Raiders United's capabilities. We are capable of viewing LR1's virtual memory (with Grappiegovert's coordinate viewer, for example,) and while I can't recall offhand if any member-made programs exist that edit that memory, it seems like a logical next step from there. The LR2 coordinate viewer can actually teleport the player, so I imagine that such jiggery-pokery is just as possible for the original.

It's a comparatively simple task: Create a program that transfers a player's data (coordinates, rotation, car, minifig, name) to a server, from whence it is sent to the other racers' computers to replace the data for an NPC racer.

 

As for the video, couldn't a functional client and server be faked just as easily, if not more easily, than gameplay?

 

 

I never said it's beyond RRU capabillities. I just said we're not able to do anything like it right now (for LR1).

also, LR1 isn't LR2. if we can create a mod in LR2 that lets you drive through walls, that doesn't mean you can do the same thing for LR1. Not when you don't have the tools to do so.

 

As for the video, you can simply achieve something close to that by changing Captain Red Beard's path, and if I'm right, someone already made an In-game coordinate viewer. (So you can just drive around and copy your coordinates). making a fake client and a server will be much harder because in order to do so you need to know how to program.

 

 

 

 

 I can't recall offhand if any member-made programs exist that edit that memory, it seems like a logical next step from there.

 

My own tool, Cafeteria for LRR modifies memory.

A memory editor isn't that hard to make, it's certainly not trivial (look at the zillions of game trainers). All his tool does is reads points in memory that stores the position of the racers, then sends that data to a next client which then their client overwrites the position of one of the racers in their game with the position that came from the server.

 

This is not a LR1 mod like the general file changes, it's a program that manages the game memory.

 

 

I never said it's not possible, but the fact that no one ever done it before (or anything close to that) just makes me feel like it's too good to be true. It's also weird that the person who posted this thread created his account just to post this thread.

but don't get me wrong, I'm not aginst this project. I think the idea of "Lego racers online" is awesome, but I don't think that someone is actually working on this project.

 

 

Exactly as the above two comments. I just don't want to show it because it's in a very early stage, but maybe I will make a video of it some time in the (near) future.

And that's why I'm skeptical.

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Quisoves Potoo
I never said it's beyond RRU capabillities. I just said we're not able to do anything like it right now (for LR1).

According to Wiktionary, capability is "the power or ability to generate an outcome." If we are not able to do anything like it right now, then we lack the ability to generate that outcome. But I digress. My point was that, even if we are not currently capable of such a feat (and I rather think that we may be capable,)  we are still close to being capable. So it is not implausible that Hoithebest and co. are slightly ahead of previous efforts in the LR modding department.

 

 

 

also, LR1 isn't LR2. if we can create a mod in LR2 that lets you drive through walls, that doesn't mean you can do the same thing for LR1. Not when you don't have the tools to do so.

True, but I was referring to something as basic as Cartesian coordinates and physical rotation. Those elements won't really differ between the two games. All you need to know is their location in memory.

 

 

 

making a fake client and a server will be much harder because in order to do so you need to know how to program.

But all that you need to produce are the outer trappings of a client and server. All you need is an interface that will produce a semblance of functionality. A person viewing a video of such a thing would not be privy to its internal workings, only to something which says "connected to server," etc.

 

 

 

I never said it's not possible, but the fact that no one ever done it before (or anything close to that) just makes me feel like it's too good to be true. It's also weird that the person who posted this thread created his account just to post this thread.

 

If Hoithebest claimed that he was working on something extremely ambitious and unheard of (e.g. custom maps) I would be skeptical, but what he is proposing is something quite simple in essence which seems very plausible, given the work of grappigegovert, RobExplorien, etc.

 

Also, it is worth noting that something being unfeasible does not mean that everyone is aware that it is. Take all the LEGO Universe spiritual successor projects that are bandied about. Almost all, from my experience, are doomed to failure, and yet people still earnestly try to produce them.

 

As for Hoithebest posting here, I don't see what's so unusual about that. He is, as he has said, seeking help, and is also no doubt looking for a focus group. People do that all the time.

 

 

 

Hoithebest, on 18 Aug 2014 - 3:45 PM, said: Exactly as the above two comments. I just don't want to show it because it's in a very early stage, but maybe I will make a video of it some time in the (near) future. And that's why I'm skeptical.

I don't see what's so suspicious about wanting to impress your target audience. The display of an interface that is too crude can be discouraging to people, since they see it as reflective of its creator's standards.

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Almogzxp

"According to Wiktionary, capability is "the power or ability to generate an outcome." If we are not able to do anything like it right now, then we lack the ability to generate that outcome. But I digress. My point was that, even if we are not currently capable of such a feat (and I rather think that we may be capable,)  we are still close to being capable. So it is not implausible that Hoithebest and co. are slightly ahead of previous efforts in the LR modding department."

I know what capabillity is. and like I said before, I mean that we're not able to do mods like that for LR1. Yet.

It doesn't matter if we're close to do such things or not. We're talking about what we're able to do now, and as far as I know we're not able to control AI racers and their position (exclude their path file).

You can claim that we're close to control the AI racers because we can find their position in the memory. well, I can claim that we're close to make custom maps, because we already have a GDB viewer. but like you said... and I quote:

"If Hoithebest claimed that he was working on something extremely ambitious and unheard of (e.g. custom maps) I would be skeptical"

-

"True, but I was referring to something as basic as Cartesian coordinates and physical rotation. Those elements won't really differ between the two games. All you need to know is their location in memory."

Actually, you also need to make a client that will constantly change these values to the values you get from the server, and it will send your local values to the server every (place selected time here)... (and that's for the very basic online gameplay.) You're right. I can't believe no one made this before... O_O

 

'But all that you need to produce are the outer trappings of a client and server. All you need is an interface that will produce a semblance of functionality. A person viewing a video of such a thing would not be privy to its internal workings, only to something which says "connected to server," etc."

Actually, I expected to see the values constantly changing in the client (or server)...

 

"If Hoithebest claimed that he was working on something extremely ambitious and unheard of (e.g. custom maps) I would be skeptical, but what he is proposing is something quite simple in essence which seems very plausible, given the work of grappigegovert, RobExplorien, etc.

 

Also, it is worth noting that something being unfeasible does not mean that everyone is aware that it is. Take all the LEGO Universe spiritual successor projects that are bandied about. Almost all, from my experience, are doomed to failure, and yet people still earnestly try to produce them.

 

As for Hoithebest posting here, I don't see what's so unusual about that. He is, as he has said, seeking help, and is also no doubt looking for a focus group. People do that all the time."

I never heard about "Lego racers online" before he opened this thread... (oh wait, I did. :x )

But if it's so simple like you said, why does he need help? :

 

"I don't see what's so suspicious about wanting to impress your target audience. The display of an interface that is too crude can be discouraging to people, since they see it as reflective of its creator's standards."

Funny that you mentioned that, after we got that video we asked more and more users supported his project, even though the video showed a buggy "crude" gameplay. They did know it's a work in progress, so no one judged him.

I can't see how another video can discourage them.

 

 

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le717

I've been withholding from posting on this, but I think it is now time.

I will admit, upon first seeing this topic, I was a bit skeptical. I linked this topic to Will, and he gave a theory as to how this might be happening. Sure enough, the next time Hoithebest came on, he said exactly what Will theorized. From that, and watching the conversations, I could tell this was a real, albeit early, project. When Hoithebest released the video showing it off, I could tell it was real, no question about it. How do I know? Because even though Rob has done a fantastic job of learning about the binary format that controls the AI path, and we have a visualizer for it, we do not have a tool to record AI paths. Further more, the movements Redbeard made, those are not possible in LEGO Racers. He was making turns on a dime and flying all around that area. Such turns and speed are simply not possible to perform in-game. And since we do not have a tool to visually record AI paths, the only way for Hoithebest to have faked this was to spend a super long time manually writing all those coordinates, and even then, I doubt it would come out the same way as shown in the video. That video clearly demonstrates the all pointers for the racer have not yet been found, and because many are still missing the player moves in erratic motions.

This is clearly a real modding project Hoithebest and his brother is undertaking, no question about it. Almogzxp, it would appear you and maybe a few others are the only ones who really think it is fake. Yes, I get your being cautious because of past experiences, but have you noticed how many times Cyrem, the founder of this forum, the guy who wrote the book on LEGO Rock Raiders modding, the guy who has also been instrumental in other game's modding, do you really think he would be posting on here saying this is a real project unless he thought it was real? Cyrem has done a lot of modding over the years. I think it would be safe to say (yes, I know we are all human and make mistakes, but aside that) that if Cyrem, though all his wisdom and experience in modding, says this is a real project, then we can believe him and Hoithebest. I'm inclined to agree that a client/server UI can be faked more than this video, especially given the movements Redbeard made. If it came down to it, and I hope it does not, I would second Xiron's idea for Hoithebest to send a copy to Cyrem or one of the staff. The staff are in that position for a reason, because they are trusted, trusted to keep the peace on this site, to remove any spambots, to be a guarding eye. Any report that came from them about this project, I'd be inclined to trust that. If I did not, then I might have trust issues. As for Hoithebest "just joining to post this", might I remind you this has happened before, that someone joined and made a first post about something modding related. "Joining and making this their first post" is no reason to immediately disqualify anyone.

Almogzxp, I'm not trying to hurt you, I'm trying to help you see this is not a fake project. I'm also not one to be excited at the first Bionicle 2015 modding project I see, especially one as ambitious as this one. Even now, I am still not "getting my hopes up", but I am very interested in seeing this project succeed. Being wary of things is fine, all of us should be that way, but when our skepticism gets in the way of seeing what other are saying and the significance of it, then trouble can occur.

@Hoithebest, I know you may be a bit unsure of this project right now, but go right ahead and work on it. Don't let anything bother you. You have the support of some of the most respected, trusted and experienced members here. You could not ask for anything better than that. I've seen your discussion, and you clearly know what you are doing. Keep doing it, and don't let skepticism get you down. Remember, there will always be people like that. I sure there were people who thought it was impossible for man to go to the moon. Look what happened. :)

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RobExplorien

I backed off, and now I've come back. Now that a little more information came free about this, it looks pleasing, to say the least. However, it's just my nature of being critical and/or skeptical about such ambitious projects suddenly coming out of nowhere.

 

we do not have a tool to record AI paths.
 

There might almost be one. Though I'm not sure if I should say this, but grappigegovert the almighty was/is onto finalizing an AI path recorder. One thing holds this back, something I've been discussing with him some time ago but got a little forgotten or it lost interest since, I think. He opted not to release it until the problem was solved, which is a reasonable decision. Maybe it's time to relive the interest and problem solving, only with his consent as well?

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Hoithebest

I've contacted Cyram to test together with me and confirm that this is real.

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le717

Now that a little more information came free about this, it looks pleasing, to say the least. However, it's just my nature of being critical and/or skeptical about such ambitious projects suddenly coming out of nowhere.

And that is fine. I'm not about to go jump on the online kart either. I too would love to see this progress more before I give my full support.

 

we do not have a tool to record AI paths.

 

There might almost be one. Though I'm not sure if I should say this, but grappigegovert the almighty was/is onto finalizing an AI path recorder. One thing holds this back, something I've been discussing with him some time ago but got a little forgotten or it lost interest since, I think. He opted not to release it until the problem was solved, which is a reasonable decision. Maybe it's time to relive the interest and problem solving, only with his consent as well?

Then allow me to correct myself. We do not currently have a usable tool to record AI paths. grappigegovert may have been making one, but as possibly only you knew this fact, thus what I said still stands.

 

I've contacted Cyram to test together with me and confirm that this is real.

I think this only proves your project is indeed real. If it were you, you would not have taken this step. Hoithebest, like I said, keep up the good work. I believe you can do this. :)

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Hoithebest

What I question myself is, are there any people here who are willing to help once I put the source code on GitHub?

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Commander Cold

Many of you will fall to the wrath of Commander Cold!

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LimeKiller
Many of you will fall to the wrath of Commander Cold!

Ooookay.... the hell?

 

 

Anyway,

What I question myself is, are there any people here who are willing to help once I put the source code on GitHub?

I really don't think you need to worry about that. There are lots of people on this site with the skills to help, and considering how awesome this could be, I'm sure they'll be willing to as well. I tend not to get involved with projects, partly because my skills are less programming and more graphics stuff, party because I don't want to make promises I can't keep, but I think that even I would be willing to do what I can to help.

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Xir

party because

tumblr_lz7voq9Qi01qjk64xo1_500.gif

 


Okay, out of context typo jokes aside. I'm no programmer either, so I wouldn't be much help, aside from finding things with Cheat Engine. I've got experience with that. My expirience being the reason grappiegovert was able to make those coordinate programs. :P

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Hoithebest

Xiron, that would actually be great. Besides programming, finding the addressess is actually the most important part! Maybe I can even do the programming on my own, but finding the addressess is much, much harder and we actually need more people that search addressess.

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Almogzxp

I've been withholding from posting on this, but I think it is now time.

I will admit, upon first seeing this topic, I was a bit skeptical. I linked this topic to Will, and he gave a theory as to how this might be happening. Sure enough, the next time Hoithebest came on, he said exactly what Will theorized. From that, and watching the conversations, I could tell this was a real, albeit early, project. When Hoithebest released the video showing it off, I could tell it was real, no question about it. How do I know? Because even though Rob has done a fantastic job of learning about the binary format that controls the AI path, and we have a visualizer for it, we do not have a tool to record AI paths. Further more, the movements Redbeard made, those are not possible in LEGO Racers. He was making turns on a dime and flying all around that area. Such turns and speed are simply not possible to perform in-game. And since we do not have a tool to visually record AI paths, the only way for Hoithebest to have faked this was to spend a super long time manually writing all those coordinates, and even then, I doubt it would come out the same way as shown in the video. That video clearly demonstrates the all pointers for the racer have not yet been found, and because many are still missing the player moves in erratic motions.

This is clearly a real modding project Hoithebest and his brother is undertaking, no question about it. Almogzxp, it would appear you and maybe a few others are the only ones who really think it is fake. Yes, I get your being cautious because of past experiences, but have you noticed how many times Cyrem, the founder of this forum, the guy who wrote the book on LEGO Rock Raiders modding, the guy who has also been instrumental in other game's modding, do you really think he would be posting on here saying this is a real project unless he thought it was real? Cyrem has done a lot of modding over the years. I think it would be safe to say (yes, I know we are all human and make mistakes, but aside that) that if Cyrem, though all his wisdom and experience in modding, says this is a real project, then we can believe him and Hoithebest. I'm inclined to agree that a client/server UI can be faked more than this video, especially given the movements Redbeard made. If it came down to it, and I hope it does not, I would second Xiron's idea for Hoithebest to send a copy to Cyrem or one of the staff. The staff are in that position for a reason, because they are trusted, trusted to keep the peace on this site, to remove any spambots, to be a guarding eye. Any report that came from them about this project, I'd be inclined to trust that. If I did not, then I might have trust issues. As for Hoithebest "just joining to post this", might I remind you this has happened before, that someone joined and made a first post about something modding related. "Joining and making this their first post" is no reason to immediately disqualify anyone.

Almogzxp, I'm not trying to hurt you, I'm trying to help you see this is not a fake project. I'm also not one to be excited at the first Bionicle 2015 modding project I see, especially one as ambitious as this one. Even now, I am still not "getting my hopes up", but I am very interested in seeing this project succeed. Being wary of things is fine, all of us should be that way, but when our skepticism gets in the way of seeing what other are saying and the significance of it, then trouble can occur.

@Hoithebest, I know you may be a bit unsure of this project right now, but go right ahead and work on it. Don't let anything bother you. You have the support of some of the most respected, trusted and experienced members here. You could not ask for anything better than that. I've seen your discussion, and you clearly know what you are doing. Keep doing it, and don't let skepticism get you down. Remember, there will always be people like that. I sure there were people who thought it was impossible for man to go to the moon. Look what happened. :)

Wow, that was a really good speech, but I don't understand why everyone is quoting me for saying that I don't believe it's real.

I mean, It's not that I'm trying to ruin "the project" or sabotage "the development process".

Every single post here (that mentions my name) is talking about how wrong I am or how crazy I am, just because I have a different opinion.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what I think. when(or if) this project will be published then I'll know it's real, and while it's not, I don't.

It's also doesn't even effect you.

(Wow it's really hard to express yourself in English)

 

 

I've contacted Cyram to test together with me and confirm that this is real.

 

Alright... I'll wait for his response.

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