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New version of ROCK RAIDERS - update


StewartG
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Couldn't disagree more.  Very much prefer PC music and I agree with Jimbo.

How? The PC music is bland and unforgettable, and that one track with the bubbles popping is fairly obnoxious. The PS1 music is a lot better, but doesn't go well with the RTS style.

I suppose I hadn't given thought to how different the genre is of this new game... Yeah, I guess it wouldn't fit so well. But I still liked the style, I think it would be nice carry it on to the new game. I can't comment on the PS1 music as I haven't listened to it.

This is a different genre of game? I was not aware of this and still am not. I agree it wouldn't fit well though, as it didn't fit in the PC game either.

 

What? I love the music in the game. I don't think that other music tracks could have done as well.

The PS1 music did it better, and I was just talking about how it would be too loud and in your face for a RTS game.
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doesn't go well with the RTS style.

 

And there's the problem.  :P  We've already had this conversation though.  I do not like the PS1 version generally so that's why.  I do not feel the PC version music was either bland or unforgettable.  It's very much tied into the fabric of my experience of playing LRR and my childhood.  It's very atmospheric for me and goes - in my opnion - extremely well with the gameplay.

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We've already had this conversation though.

I do not feel the PC version music was either bland or unforgettable. It's very much tied into the fabric of my experience of playing LRR and my childhood. It's very atmospheric for me and goes - in my opnion - extremely well with the gameplay.

I forgot that conversation.

The PC game's music is tied into my experience of playing LRR, and I don't find it atmospheric or good for the gameplay. On the flipside, I spent a year or two with a music-less copy of the game before it broke and I got the selectsoft version, but whether that's responsible or not I'd still like to see this game's music be a hundred times better.

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re: Music. They say you can't please all of the people, some like, some dislike! I guess a choice would be ideal, and pick the ones you personally like.

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How about AI, we had a basic FIFO (first in first out) priority list system where the next orders were given to the next available Minifig, this meant that sometimes a minifig on one side of the level would walk right over to the other side of the level past other possible tasks. The advantage is that tasks always get sorted in the order they are given and none get 'left' in the list. Was this OK, or would you prefer minifig's finding tasks based on closeness to their current position? or appropriate to their skills? Any other AI concerns that I can iron out?  - I did read about setting a priority for combat?  Because of the low processing spec that we had to deal with at the time, we limited the AI, so it  would not be a large drain and cause an unwanted pause on the processor, it is an area we can now process more thoroughly and often, which will improve the apparent logic. Our AI was broken down into steps, and new tasks were only checked and re-allocated when a step was complete, so go to a position, was one task,  pick up crystal, then find new destination. We can now check during a walk.

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What if players had the choice? Unless that's too much AI coding. It would be nice to choose between having your Rock Raiders complete the tasks you have prioritised (which could be important when in a rush), having them perform whatever is nearby (for more casual play), and having them perform tasks they are good at (perhaps helpful when strategy is called for).

 

Or perhaps have a choice of performing prioritised tasks, or tasks pertaining to a character's skill starting with nearby tasks.

 

I'm no expert with AI but if processing power ever ends up needing to be conserved, perhaps you could have Rock Raiders check for events whenever an event* occurs and they are not currently doing something, rather than constantly as they are walking. Unless that's what you meant and I just misinterpreted you.

 

*An event being any instance from the player giving a command to a cave-in or whatever.

 

 

I suppose I hadn't given thought to how different the genre is of this new game... Yeah, I guess it wouldn't fit so well. But I still liked the style, I think it would be nice carry it on to the new game. I can't comment on the PS1 music as I haven't listened to it.

This is a different genre of game? I was not aware of this and still am not. I agree it wouldn't fit well though, as it didn't fit in the PC game either.

My apologies, I forgot this was an RTS and not a first-person game.

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and I don't find it atmospheric or good for the gameplay

 

The exact opposite for me. I love atmospheric music when I'm doing something.

I think you misread what you quoted.

Anyway, I'm with Lair here, the PS1 style music wouldn't work as well in an RTS game. Something more ambient would be good.

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I'm no expert with AI but if processing power ever ends up needing to be conserved, perhaps you could have Rock Raiders check for events whenever an event* occurs and they are not currently doing something, rather than constantly as they are walking. Unless that's what you meant and I just misinterpreted you.

 

Ya, a pipeline with signalling (basically your idea) would probably work best.

 

The Raider never checks for a task.

Rather, a job manager fills an array with jobs as they are generated.

Whenever a Raider completes its current job, it sends a signal to the job manager which then adds it to an array of raiders who are job candidates.

Whenever a raider is added or a job is added, that generates a signal that tells the task manager to assign jobs.

 

This way, processing occurs only on demand -- lazy evaluation, as opposed to a continuous processing loop that runs with the rest of the game logic.

A nice feature is this system is independent of how DDI decides to make the AI handle tasks (Rock Raiders like priority system, closeness system, ability system, or even something else).

 

 

To sum it up, it doesn't matter how DDI decides to delegate tasks to the Raiders, the performance impact would be the same regardless of the method used . ( ;) )

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This discussion gave me an idea for a new building: Communication Center.

Basically, a raider would need to be within a certain distance of your base in order to receive commands. Once a command has been issued to it, it would go perform it's task but after completing it would then have to return to the base before it could receive a new task, up until the Comm Center is built.

The Comm Center would allow you to issue commands at a greater distance. More Comms, more distance.

Just an idea and I thought I'd throw it out there.

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Basically, a raider would need to be within a certain distance of your base in order to receive commands. Once a command has been issued to it, it would go perform it's task but after completing it would then have to return to the base before it could receive a new task, up until the Comm Center is built.

The Comm Center would allow you to issue commands at a greater distance. More Comms, more distance.

Sounds interesting, I kinda like it. Although if it were to be integrated, would it not be better to have it in higher difficulty zones only? (Referring to StewartG's post here.) That way you can command your figures freely on less difficult zones for casual play/free building or whatever, and then the gamers who want a challenge would have to use the Comms in the more wild zones.

 

EDIT: Thinking about it again... Why would the player know about available tasks distant from the base, but require a comms to communicate to their Rock Raiders? Unless the player is aboard some ship like the L.M.S. Explorer and can scan the planet, but not communicate well.

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I'm just going to throw down ideas here. All will not be great, some I came up with on the fly with little in-depth thought.

  • Walls
    • Like Lair said, mining walls should be similar to LRR's current method, but not have the giant grid method that is currently employed. Instead, have a smaller grid system (but not too small - I'd say each LRR grid should be 4 or 6 squares instead. Raiders can fit into a 1-square grid, hover scouts/small trucks can fit into a 2-square grid, granite grinder into a 3 or 4, large wheeled vehicles needing like 6.
    • Also, that way each cube can be an individual ore so 'seams' aren't just random walls that have extra ore or crystals - there'll be clusters of cubes that have special ores mixed among the generic rock.
    • I'd say make each 'wall' 2 or three cubes high, and then procedurally draw the roof connecting above those depending on how many cubes are surrounding it.
  • Vehicles
    • Keep vehicle functions close to what they are in LRR, but make them have a special niche - like Granite Grinder much cheaper than Chrome Crusher, hover scout faster, give a use to the Small Mobile Laser Cutter (and the large one for that matter...)
    • Some sort of water-based drilling vehicle that won't drop the resources in the water.
    • Some sort of aerial transportation of materials for construction purposes (like how the Small Transport Truck will help construction)
  • AI
    • Hunger - instead of sandwiches, raiders should have a deteriorating hunger/stamina bar that they have to replenish or they'll lose efficiency. If it goes all the way down, they faint and need to be taken to a med bay/support station by a transport truck or something.
    • Priorities - keep the FIFO method for manually directed tasks, but make unspecified tasks actually have a priority over one another with a time limit so that a task that hasn't been completed for a long time doesn't stay that way.
    • Make Raiders be smart about dynamite (don't lose task at hand - just wait) (training?)
    • Construction - smart resource distribution. Ensure Small Transport Trucks don't drop off too much. Also, if an area is inaccessible by land, try to make the game smart and use a chain system of raiders and Rapid Riders, for instance (not as much of a priority, but very useful - training as well?)
  • Raiders
    • A few training options - tool and resource efficiency, weapons training (for accuracy)
  • Buildings
    • Building niches in current game are nice - maybe add a couple things such as the aforementioned comm tower, make the mining laser more useful
    • Placement on level ground can be annoying. Add some functionality to use materials to level out the ground (to an extent)?
  • Materials
    • Maybe add one or two more materials for certain special uses (upgrades?), but no more than that
    • Make resources (such as ore) more rare - not in every wall (or make construction require vastly more of it)
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This discussion gave me an idea for a new building: Communication Center.

Basically, a raider would need to be within a certain distance of your base in order to receive commands. Once a command has been issued to it, it would go perform it's task but after completing it would then have to return to the base before it could receive a new task, up until the Comm Center is built.

The Comm Center would allow you to issue commands at a greater distance. More Comms, more distance.

Just an idea and I thought I'd throw it out there.

No.

There is absolutely no fun to be gained from this. It would be annoying, illogical, and utterly pointless.

It would completely break a ton of things like, say, Run the Gauntlet, Don't Panic, Split Down the Middle, or any level involving you focusing on controlling individual units, or levels involving choke points/points of no return (say, like Erode Works in the first game).

And even in the more standard levels you'd be forced to stay with under a game mechanic like that, you'd basically just be amplifying the existing LRR AI problems, with units wasting a ton of time running across the whole freaking map ten times over for no reason.

Did I mention that in addition to causing a ton of problems, from severely limiting level design to making the AI even more unbearable, it doesn't make anything else in the game more fun? It's literally 100% terrible.

Just no.

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No. There is absolutely no fun to be gained from this. It sounds annoying, illogical, and utterly pointless. It would completely break a ton of things like, say, Run the Gauntlet, Don't Panic, Split Down the Middle, or any level involving you focusing on controlling individual units, or levels involving choke points/points of no return (say, like Erode Works in the first game). And even in the more standard levels you'd be forced to stay with under a game mechanic like that, you'd basically just be amplifying the existing LRR AI problems, with units wasting a ton of time running across the whole freaking map ten times over for no reason. Did I mention that in addition to causing a ton of problems, it doesn't make anything else in the game more fun? It's literally 100% terrible. Just no.

I could argue this, but I won't. It was just an idea I had that I thought I'd put out there in case they liked it.

I can see why you wouldn't like this idea you were pretty thorough on that point

Also as jimbob mentioned there is a shortcoming of logic involved.

Perhaps I might be able to come up with something more workable from this concept but maybe not.

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No. There is absolutely no fun to be gained from this. It sounds annoying, illogical, and utterly pointless. It would completely break a ton of things like, say, Run the Gauntlet, Don't Panic, Split Down the Middle, or any level involving you focusing on controlling individual units, or levels involving choke points/points of no return (say, like Erode Works in the first game). And even in the more standard levels you'd be forced to stay with under a game mechanic like that, you'd basically just be amplifying the existing LRR AI problems, with units wasting a ton of time running across the whole freaking map ten times over for no reason. Did I mention that in addition to causing a ton of problems, it doesn't make anything else in the game more fun? It's literally 100% terrible. Just no.

I could argue this, but I won't. It was just an idea I had that I thought I'd put out there in case they liked it.

I can see why you wouldn't like this idea you were pretty thorough on that point

Also as jimbob mentioned there is a shortcoming of logic involved.

Perhaps I might be able to come up with something more workable from this concept but maybe not.

I think it was a great idea, it's just possibly not as suitable for this game as wargames and such. Although perhaps it'd make a great mod if it isn't consider for the game :)

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I think it was a great idea, it's just possibly not as suitable for this game as wargames and such. Although perhaps it'd make a great mod if it isn't consider for the game :)

It wouldn't.
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I have had a great idea for quality of buildings and vehicles from varying distances. Here is a list of my model quality ideas (note only these would work if there were a first person mode, like in rock raiders):

 

1. From very far away: The whole model is built up of textures and doesn't have a mesh. Also a 2d animated texture can come in handy for this.

 

2. Two squares away: The model becomes a full mesh but still has low quality textures.

 

1. Right up next to it: The model and texture quality is really high and extra stuff can be added... like this roughness: 

 

Just an idea for model quality.

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I think it was a great idea, it's just possibly not as suitable for this game as wargames and such. Although perhaps it'd make a great mod if it isn't consider for the game :)

It wouldn't.

Always straight to the point :)

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Keep vehicle functions close to what they are in LRR, but make them have a special niche - like Granite Grinder much cheaper than Chrome Crusher, hover scout faster, give a use to the Small Mobile Laser Cutter (and the large one for that matter...)

Or better yet, totally original buildings, vehicles, and characters.

Placement on level ground can be annoying. Add some functionality to use materials to level out the ground (to an extent)?

Hence my thinking of ground and roof being blocks too, so that you could smooth stuff out. I didn't think of building it up, though.
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1. From very far away: The whole model is built up of textures and doesn't have a mesh. Also a 2d animated texture can come in handy for this. 2. Two squares away: The model becomes a full mesh but still has low quality textures. 1. Right up next to it: The model and texture quality is really high and extra stuff can be added... like this roughness:

  You will need a mesh to get the view correct, as for texture sizes, this is called LOD - Level of detail - we have this, you have 8 levels of texture detail and it uses the optimal texture for the distance away from the camera. With the power of PC's, memory and video acceleration, the mesh detail and textures are going to look great, this is not a concern.
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Hence my thinking of ground and roof being blocks too, so that you could smooth stuff out. I didn't think of building it up, though.

I was thinking that, but having a flat map with cube dropoffs doesn't seem right to me. I feel the terrain in LRR was handled more or less how it should have been - able to slope, still have water and lava with no consequences as to the terrain level. Simple landscaping as to flatten an area out would be awesome, but not to change the elevation.
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I was thinking that, but having a flat map with cube dropoffs doesn't seem right to me. I feel the terrain in LRR was handled more or less how it should have been - able to slope, still have water and lava with no consequences as to the terrain level. Simple landscaping as to flatten an area out would be awesome, but not to change the elevation.

Except it'll be a 3D world (or so can be understood from the other topic) rather than a flat 2D world with a heightmap, so it will very different from LRR. Thus, they'll have to come up with something new to handle how to visualize terrain, and while they're at it, they can add cool new features.

 

...Ok, I'm not really replying to your statement so much as supporting the terraforming idea.

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Except it'll be a 3D world (or so can be understood from the other topic) rather than a flat 2D world with a heightmap, so it will very different from LRR. Thus, they'll have to come up with something new to handle how to visualize terrain, and while they're at it, they can add cool new features.

 

...Ok, I'm not really replying to your statement so much as supporting the terraforming idea.

I was leaning more towards a 3D world built on top of a heightmap. The cube idea works great for Minecraft and the like, but with vehicles and solid buildings, it doesn't do as great of a job (particularly the former)
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I was leaning more towards a 3D world built on top of a heightmap. The cube idea works great for Minecraft and the like, but with vehicles and solid buildings, it doesn't do as great of a job (particularly the former)

A heightmap is redundant in a 3D world. Refer to Minecraft and Dwarf Fortress (well, a heightmap can be used in terrain generation, but it's purely superficial).

 

I think you might be getting confused by 3D. I don't mean 3D as in 3D graphics, I mean 3D as in a 3 dimensional world, you can go up and you can go down. There's aboveground and below ground (Like minecraft), not a flat 2D map which only looks 3D if 3D graphics and a heightmap are used (like most any RTS out there).

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