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New version of ROCK RAIDERS - update


StewartG
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Another thing I thought of: add hotkeys. I kept wanting to hit "b" whenever I wanted to build something.

Also, a quick way to select idle units would be nice. Pressing tab to cycle may be a good mechanic.

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Idea of hotkeys I agree with. The more simple hotkeys made for moves, the faster things can be done, though it may take time for the player to learn these hotkeys (depending on their gaming experience).

 

Perhaps make the support station more dependent on. Since it's call "Barracks" in the LRR stuff, more advanced weapons, healing, or better quality mining tools for the Rock Raiders could be used.

 

Instead of them going to the station when they get low on food, mayby allow a "break time" action that would allow all raiders to come to the support station and start eating. Add a warning feature that would be "Some Rock Raiders are getting hungry", to make you want to pay attention to their situation, and makes it more difficult.

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I had a thought that might not apply to this game: you can upgrade the LMS Explorer between levels as if it were a map through buildings and through this can carry more than just worker upgrades between levels. Or perhaps this would be how to unlock certain units and buildings(?) You could also launch missions from this map.

 

One of the problems this would cause is the game would get easier as you upgraded more and more.

 

However, since it's a map, you could have some incidents occur between certain missions that you would have to either fix or leave before starting the mission.

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Another thing I thought of: add hotkeys. I kept wanting to hit "b" whenever I wanted to build something. Also, a quick way to select idle units would be nice. Pressing tab to cycle may be a good mechanic.
  - points like this are great, feedback of a problem found from repeated play, and a constructive fix, which is totally do-able.
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One of the problems this would cause is the game would get easier as you upgraded more and more.
  there will be a lot of new materials to mine for, to cretae new stronger more powerful/capable buildings and vehicles, so the difficulty will increase, which will keep it all balanced - this will need Beta testing, which I hope you will all help with
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Instead of them going to the station when they get low on food, mayby allow a "break time" action that would allow all raiders to come to the support station and start eating. Add a warning feature that would be "Some Rock Raiders are getting hungry", to make you want to pay attention to their situation, and makes it more difficult.
 

This was already mentioned somewhere and someone suggested that you could do such breaks somewhere else, but not in the headquarter because it takes much time to go back to HQ, eat and go back to the place you have been before...

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I have a question to ask. Part of the enjoyment of Minecraft to me is using the variety of different materials and colours to create various structures and objects, of different shapes and sizes. For instance, I might use Oak Logs to create corner posts for my house, Oak Planks for the walls and Birch Planks for the floor, then craft the planks into staircases for use on the roof. Similarly, I enjoy smelting and crafting Cobblestone to create different aesthetics of stone. Plus, I like to dye my wool into various bright colours for various uses.

 

Rock Raiders, at least with regards to the original game and sets, had an overall dull/dark colour scheme - even though the turquoise and yellows helped to add a break from the browns and greys. Are you going to keep it like this or introduce a range of materials and colours, and if so how will they integrate into the theme? I don't like playing games that are dark and dull-coloured, but equally Rock Raiders (or Block Raiders or Rock Raiders 2, whatever it's called) would probably need a good reason for bright colours if you included them.

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More petty griping suggestions:
I know I mentioned hotkeys, but action groups might be something else to consider.

By "action group" I mean you can set up keys that, when pressed, will automatically select user set groups of unit(s).

In most RTSes, this is almost always done by first selecting the units and then pressing ctrl-# (# being a number.) When you later press the number, the units are reselected. This allows for quick control. Another useful hot key might be a "cycle view between selected units" button.

 

I never really used the laser turrets. It was never really explained what they did in the tutorials. I guess they were used for defense, as that's what I used them for in the end. This is confusing as these lasers were called "mining lasers" not "kill things with lasers... lasers". While playing again, I found that while the mobile lasers were somewhat useful for quick defense, the stationary laser towers were easily outclassed by the electric fences in terms of defense (see comment about electric fences being Over Powered, or, in gaming terms, OP). Lasers, while having a range, being more mobile and more fun to use, were outclassed by the automatic, non-crystal using, one hit KO electric fences.

 

On most levels with monsters, I basically surrounded my entire base with electric fences. As long as slimy slugs never showed up, my base was ensured to never be damaged. I then proceeded to expand the electric fence system outward, slowly covering most of the spawn points of rock monsters. Since electric fences did 100% damage, I was set.

 

If electric fences are to be included in the new game, they should probably be nerfed. A simple way I can think of is limit the number of times they can "daisy chain" away from a building. This could also be a thing you can upgrade; when you first start, you can only daisy chain one extra electric fence, but as you progress, you can daisy chain more of them. Other things that could be nerfed is damage. This too could be a good thing that can be upgraded with time. Another thing that could be added as a nerf is recharge time, which, again, could be upgraded to be faster. Also, I was thinking these upgrades would be better as "global upgrades" in that buying the upgrade would apply to ALL the fences instead of having to upgrade individual fences.

 

 

Also, fix how vehicles drop stuff off on build platforms. In the old game, I found it annoying how the vehicles would drop ALL their resources on a build platform, such as dropping six energy crystals when the build recipe called for only two. While on the topic of vehicles carrying stuff, is it just me or did vehicles only carry one type of material at a time? I guess that was primarily done to reduce memory use. This tended to be fine since there were only two things that it could pick up, however, if more resources are to be introduced, i would highly suggest making vehicles able to pick up multiple types of materials at a time. Also, vehicles never seemed to pick up building studs. Due to the aforementioned problem with dropping too much of a resource while building, this was OK.

 

 

 

Also, GET RID OF THE F***ING BATS. If you do decide to keep them in, I would suggest that you have a way to repel them from certain areas because a badly positioned swarm of bats can bring construction of a vital building to a standstill due to your rockraider's acute chiroptophobia. Another use for sonic emitters, perhaps? Be sure to mention the repelling technique somewhere in a tutorial. Spiders were also an annoyance, however, since they disappeared once stepped on, it's an acceptable annoyance that makes using vehicles even better.

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  • 2 months later...

I understand that its probably a little late - almost 3 months on since the last post in this thread. But i wanted to bump it for 2 reasons. 1) the fb page is dead too, and hopefully some email in people's inboxes could get the discussion going again or some news on the project status. 

Also from reading the issue about voxels/cubes the sort of thing i imagined was something along the lines of a XCOM style layout 

What i mean by this is basically the map is broken down into simple square ares, but it also has more complex detail within the said square that doesn't affect the gameplay mechanics. sorta like the original game with it's abilty to have very steep sloped floor tiles but raiders climb them fine etc. Also it might be nice to see an option or overlay tickbox to see the slope of the floor based by color, for the veichle slope. basically all the issues with things fitting in gaps etc are covered, simply by making nice little overlays and giving the play information about the world - something i see as very important in a game like rock raiders, all about mining and changing the world/level as you go.

 

Now i wouldn't mind a voxel game, but i think it would certainly make sense if the cubes are smaller than lets say in mine craft, because a game more focused on the heavy mining, especially if its repetitive, seems to make more sense if you are able to leave little areas for a 'rough' touch. this way as people create things they would leave single blocks undug at the tunnel edges, and as they smoothed it over for building buildings on/reinforcing the area making core access tunnels then it would be obviously smoothed rock, more like the inside of a concrete building - very nicely mined/dug out

But i do mainly like the core idea of still including sloped floors like the original. perhaps a cube based mining and level design system, but voxel corners are joined by polys to create a smoother, more modern approach. Like if you imagine building a single cube in a flat floor floor leaves a little 'hill' but the additional area that would go into the adjacent areas wouldn't fit into the hitbox at all. indeed if you built another cube right next to it then the hill would become a little longer hill rather than a rounded one.

 

I like the idea of multiple consoles. Some people have spoken about their objection, but i think this is born of pc gaming in general. a strategy game like rock raiders 2 wont be limited by being on those old consoles, because at its core its not about graphics muscle - why are you still playing a game as old as the original rock raiders if its not about original and engaging gameplay. The graphics needn't be intense - i think i would prefer personally that the graphics were sacrificed a little to add a more 'complex' or 'realistic' world, with more time given to the experience i got when i first played the original - the fun of digging suddenly into huge caverns and imagining the breathtaking vistas of water and lava, along with the awesome but pointless first person experience. this i think ties into my first point about informing the player about the world's state. in more modern games this is increasingly being left to graphics muscle, but i think for a game with a gameplay like the original lrr the important thing is to feel like you are actually exploring a new world methodically like a mining team - mining nice squares. perhaps if conjunction with the 'smoothed' voxels idea i was talking about (im sure its been used before im not the first to think of it)  the console versions could not smooth the voxels as much or indeed possibly at all, and instead display it like a block.

 

I just like the idea of taking a smooth rocky world and leveling it out with rock i took from those walls and building my base on the flattened area, and having the area i just mined out all rough and jagged.

 

Im not a regular community member - in fact i'm surprised that i ever played this game seeing as im 15 - the game was released when i was ONE! :) but somehow i played this game alot during my childhood on our old windows 98 machine, and really enjoyed it and had played though lots of times and even messed around with the rru map editor. I find the idea of a spiritual lego rock raiders sequel amazing. One thing i would want to stray from is the idea of little minigames for trivial tasks, such as mining out little areas. i think thats what people were worried about with the wii ideas. my understanding from your posts was that you weren't using the 3d ablities of the wiimote much, just more like a cursor on the screen which in my opinion is entirely reasonable.

 

The whole game idea is great - but i think that sometimes people can get a little too hooked up about a name like some people on here. I mean honestly they can call it whatever but seeing as they got the rock raiders trademark (Payed for it!) they might as well use that. I dont really mind what its called or what the fb page looks like - btw i really like that concept art and the 3d models posted there.

Imagine if they called it rock raiders:?????????? or something as silly and pointless as that. if the gameplay was half good, we wouldn't care. in fact, 'rock raiders' sounds gimmicky if you present it to someone who has never heard of the idea. Just leave it and let the hype build from the game not the name.

 

 

On the topic of hotkeys, while i didn't ever think of trying to use any on the original, the new game would be great with them. Things like 'b' for build and 'tab' for cycling through units

 

For the game gui, a topic i feel hasn't been discussed very much, i feel a solidly industrial design like the original would be good - albeit with updated graphics - spinning fan blades or cogs, menus opening by mechanics extending outward, loose wires sparking etc... so long as its not to distracting. The original gui was very nicely done; i think it is another important aspect of that feeling of knowing about the world. The gui should also include nice readouts like the ai priorities panel on the original. 

 

On the topic of killing things, i think that in reality the way the original game handled it was very nice. I like the idea of a game that is for once NOT in fact about killing things. i also like the way that the combat in the original game was fractured - just like it should have been; the rock raiders had mining equipment but not weapons, and everything they had was improvised. The game needn't become constantly in jeopardy from monsters but more having them as an additional threat there with oxygen, lava spread, cave-ins and the rest of it (power, time limits etc.) I like the way that there was no real way to just kill the monsters easily (apart from ice monsters hehe), even if it was from poor shooting ai - you had to find other ways of nullifying the threat, like drawing them into electric fences or trapping them until they went into the wall. I think the developer person who was here had mostly the right idea - building defenses like moats and focusing on slowing their advance while you continue mining rather than building a raiders vs monsters combat rts.

 

Indeed i really like the idea given about selecting parts. in fact i play another game regularly called warzone 2100. you should google it sometime its got a free pc port, and its an old ps1 game too hehe :) The reason i say this is not because i want to advertise it, but instead show an example of the veichle customization. Also another game that i think you could possibly take inspiration from is an old ps2 game called naval ops: warship gunner. Again the game itself is very different, but the veichle customization with parts was very nice, and also i really loved the blueprint design screen. while these ideas may or may not fit into the rock raiders 2, they do show the general 'feel' i thought of when i heard your comment about custom vehicles.

 

One way of doing it: Naval Ops's Ship design:

navalops_070103_inline_02.jpg

 

 

A more simple approach: Warzone 2100's Truck/tank/hovercraft design: (seems closer to the idea you were having)

 

warzone2100_03.jpg

I just wanted to post these pictures because they are similar to the effect you are looking for, although possibly just for inspiration.

 

Also i like the way that in both of these games, while it 'felt' fully customization, it also ensured that the player-made designs still followed a certain theme, because for me games like drawn to life or some other lego games feel a little unfulfilling because i need to spent a very long time to get anything nearly as good looking as the non-customization parts of the game. 

 

Also i would like to see the ability somehow to keep going on forever, while also reigning in the 'resource inflation' that happens in minecraft servers and such. Its a very hard concept to do, but in the original small levels kept it in check. i feel that with the new version some other solution should be tried, because i really want to see huge long tunnels and endless caverns. Perhaps necessitate some sort of very difficult to survive place (buildings and vehicles and raider's health deteriorate and no items drop when they are teleported back) in order to get some very rare or expensive but necessary resource. to tell you the truth i liked the obsolescence of some of the things in the original rock raiders game, such as the hover scout or the lazer cutters. While these things didn't come into the average playstyle, they could still be used for a number of things, which in my opinion flavours a game much much better than the opposite, which most games seem to favour, which is that everything needs to be useful, and only for one use. i really like how the lazers can be used for digging or for combat, and i feel that this multiple use idea is very cool.

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I'm surprised no-one has mentioned Power Surges. That happens when you have gazillions of power paths and then your building just lose power. Either that's a glitch - in which case, it'd be nice to not have it, or it's a feature. The problem with it being a feature is 'how do you actually fix it?' It's pretty nice, but there was no warning until Sparks yelled 'Your air supply is running low' by which time it is too late...

Perhaps, if it was a feature, you could have something like 1 Power Station = 20 fine paths, 30 paths with occasional blackouts, and 50 paths won't work. Or it could be based on building count. It's not bad as a feature but it needs some way to stop it. Perhaps it just reasserts itself after a while or if you build another Power Station?

 

Someone said something about healing stuff. Say you upgrade a vehicle to the max that costs a lot of whatever resources you used. In RR, if you upgraded a vehicle and then teleported it out, you never got that ore back. I always thought that the 'Engineer' skill would enable raiders to fix vehicles, but nope. There needs to be some way to heal vehicles.

 

Some things about Electric Fences: They should be able to be destroyed by monsters. Perhaps you could give the monsters a sort of AI so that they knew to eat stuff outside the fences, then attack the fences, attack anything that's carrying a fence and then go for the buildings?

Also, if fences cost a fair bit to make then that would make them less used.

 

I think I'll quote this:

gallery_1586_364_428698.jpg

 

Getting units to do only what you tell them to if you want would be nice. Especially a hunger-feeder. He gets a whole lot of food, and either a) stands there until it's gone out, in which case he would go back to the food shop and get some more, or b) puts it somewhere, goes back and gets another pile, places that pile somewhere else, etc.

If you could mark a tile as 'Put Food Here' that'd be nice.

Or you could just build a food shop closer by. It's an idea.

 

Also, a couple of things with vehicles. I might be muddling into specifics by now, but meh. When you get there you can come back and look at my long rant. :P

I always though it'd be nice if you could tell certain types of vehicles (or individual vehicles) to do only some tasks. F'r instance, (going to RR examples) I don't want my raiders carrying electric fences because they get scared. I want the trucks to carry them.  However I wanted raiders to carry other things, like barriers and Sonic Blasters because I had more control over them. I also wished that raiders would just carry the needing-to-be-recharged crystal to the Recharge Seam, recharge it, and drop it there for the trucks to pick up.

 

More things with vehicles - Vehicles should also be able to be scared. Of course, you don't want your mobile defence unit to be scared, but you want your trucks to be scared so they stay out of danger.

And hunger in vehicles. Why do raiders never need to eat when they're in a vehicle? Perhaps hunger would decrease slower because they're doing less work, but they still need to eat!

 

 I just want to point out a couple of fine details that don't matter now and will probably only matter in a year's time. :P

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I'm surprised no-one has mentioned Power Surges. That happens when you have gazillions of power paths and then your building just lose power. Either that's a glitch - in which case, it'd be nice to not have it, or it's a feature. The problem with it being a feature is 'how do you actually fix it?' It's pretty nice, but there was no warning until Sparks yelled 'Your air supply is running low' by which time it is too late...

It was a glitch.

 

Perhaps, if it was a feature, you could have something like 1 Power Station = 20 fine paths, 30 paths with occasional blackouts, and 50 paths won't work. Or it could be based on building count. It's not bad as a feature but it needs some way to stop it. Perhaps it just reasserts itself after a while or if you build another Power Station?

So, what you're saying is that people should not be able to build however much they want? If they want to include Surge as a legitimate threat, then it needs to be completely redeisgned. Simply punishing people for building big bases is not good gameplay.

 

Someone said something about healing stuff. Say you upgrade a vehicle to the max that costs a lot of whatever resources you used. In RR, if you upgraded a vehicle and then teleported it out, you never got that ore back. I always thought that the 'Engineer' skill would enable raiders to fix vehicles, but nope. There needs to be some way to heal vehicles.

Don't drive them into monsters.

 

Some things about Electric Fences: They should be able to be destroyed by monsters. Perhaps you could give the monsters a sort of AI so that they knew to eat stuff outside the fences, then attack the fences, attack anything that's carrying a fence and then go for the buildings?

Also, if fences cost a fair bit to make then that would make them less used.

I think that's absolutely ridiculous. The fences then become completely useless. Fences were designed to be a powerful security measure which required important resources, and as such its up to the player if they want to make the trade-off. Simply nerfing them to the point where they defend against nothing is ridiculous, and you might as well remove them from gameplay completely.

 

Getting units to do only what you tell them to if you want would be nice. Especially a hunger-feeder. He gets a whole lot of food, and either a) stands there until it's gone out, in which case he would go back to the food shop and get some more, or b) puts it somewhere, goes back and gets another pile, places that pile somewhere else, etc.

If you could mark a tile as 'Put Food Here' that'd be nice.

Or you could just build a food shop closer by. It's an idea.

The f**** are you on?

This is not The Sims. Priorities was made to resolve the problem of idle AI, because they always have active tasks to attend to. Yes, it didn't work properly, but the solution theory was pretty good. If you remove the AI from the AI, what do they become? Slaves, puppets, anything that isn't AI. Your command overrides their thoughts, but ultimately those units need to be able to automatically respond to any situation, otherwise they just seem extremely dumb.

Also, no, food is not an interactible object and should never be. Food is meant to be a challenge whereby you need to carefully cycle your raiders so that some are working, some are recharging their energy. Leaving food on the ground is unhygenic and adds an element to gameplay which breaks this challenge. What's the point of the AI eating and having a hunger/energy bar if you can just make them do whatever anyway?

If the next game has a thing called a "Sandwich Shop", I quit. That would be a useless and downright out of place idea.

 

I always though it'd be nice if you could tell certain types of vehicles (or individual vehicles) to do only some tasks. F'r instance, (going to RR examples) I don't want my raiders carrying electric fences because they get scared. I want the trucks to carry them.  However I wanted raiders to carry other things, like barriers and Sonic Blasters because I had more control over them. I also wished that raiders would just carry the needing-to-be-recharged crystal to the Recharge Seam, recharge it, and drop it there for the trucks to pick up.

Why are you building fences in the middle of an attack? Why aren't you getting guns and shooting the damn monsters?! Fences are a protective measure, not an offensive weapon.

Except, raiders DO carry those tools, and vehicles can't. They're not regular objects and can only be used by Rock Raiders. Why have the truck pick up the recharged crystal if they're right there? They need to be there to recharge the crystal, last I checked.

 

More things with vehicles - Vehicles should also be able to be scared. Of course, you don't want your mobile defence unit to be scared, but you want your trucks to be scared so they stay out of danger.

And hunger in vehicles. Why do raiders never need to eat when they're in a vehicle? Perhaps hunger would decrease slower because they're doing less work, but they still need to eat!

The f**** is this?!

VEHICLES ARE NOT PEOPLE. VEHICLES CAN'T GET SCARED. The drivers might be scared, BUT THEY'RE IN A VEHICLE. Tanks can flatten monsters easy. Cars can outrun them. At least, that's how I assumed people and the RRs thought. There's no real danger for the DRIVER of the vehicle to be scared about, until it's too late.

Because when they're in a vehicle, the game uses a different movement and control system. Energy is not counted while in the vehicle because the RR is no longer counted, the vehicle is. You're assuming also that people can't multitask and can't eat while driving. How would you know they're not eating in there? There's no animations for it, but that's because it's a ridiculous idea that Raiders need to eat when gameplay dictates they're not the ones you're controlling.

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Agreed nearly completely with McJobless, though repairing vehicles (either by a mechanic/engineer or at an upgrade/repair station) would be nice.

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Don't drive them into monsters.

You act like raiders don't do this on their own.

 

If the next game has a thing called a "Sandwich Shop", I quit. That would be a useless and downright out of place idea.

It's not useless if the hunger mechanics are kept. And don't forget that there's evidence in the original game that a canteen-type building was planned which could have been very close to a snax shop.

 

Why have the truck pick up the recharged crystal if they're right there? They need to be there to recharge the crystal, last I checked.

He said the raiders should drop the crystals after they've finished recharging so the trucks can pick them up which frees the raider to do something else. Try again.

 

You're assuming also that people can't multitask and can't eat while driving. How would you know they're not eating in there? There's no animations for it, but that's because it's a ridiculous idea that Raiders need to eat when gameplay dictates they're not the ones you're controlling.

 

We know they're not eating in there because you can still see their hunger meters go down, and drivers are typically at max hunger after driving around for a while.

5/10, needs work.

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It's not useless if the hunger mechanics are kept. And don't forget that there's evidence in the original game that a canteen-type building was planned which could have been very close to a snax shop.

Don't forget that the canteen was merged/turned into an all-around support station which, well, supports more minifigures - which (IMO) fits the theming and gameplay much better than having an entire building in a sci-fi gritty mining game that's dedicated to simply passing out sandwiches.

 

He said the raiders should drop the crystals after they've finished recharging so the trucks can pick them up which frees the raider to do something else. Try again.

Which then leaves them open for monsters to nom. What do?
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You act like raiders don't do this on their own.

It's not the that raiders are dumb, it's that the Monsters are smart ;P

 

It's not useless if the hunger mechanics are kept. And don't forget that there's evidence in the original game that a canteen-type building was planned which could have been very close to a snax shop.

They'd need to be improved mechanics though. Animation speed slowing down based on how little energy a raider has, more time spent dropping ore and wiping their face etc. And it has to be called "Snax 4 U"

 

He said the raiders should drop the crystals after they've finished recharging so the trucks can pick them up which frees the raider to do something else. Try again.

Didn't seem like it to me, but okay. That said, you can do it manually. Yes, an automatic behaviour would be nice, but there is a method to accomplish it already.

Then again, I never recharge crystals.

 

We know they're not eating in there because you can still see their hunger meters go down, and drivers are typically at max hunger after driving around for a while.

My bad. I didn't realise Rock Raiders were careful drivers.

5/10, needs work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJXKVOxqkWM
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I see my ideas have caused a lot of controversy. They're ideas. They're not all going to be in the game.

 

 

 

Cirevam, on 29 Jan 2014 - 4:49 PM, said: He said the raiders should drop the crystals after they've finished recharging so the trucks can pick them up which frees the raider to do something else. Try again.
Which then leaves them open for monsters to nom. What do?

Also, it's far quicker to have a truck carry crystals than one RR who can get scared, stop for breaks, etc. If crystals are a sufficiently high priority then no monsters should be able to nom them before the truck gets there.

 

 Here the formatting got a little screwed and I'm not sure how to fix it.

 /

 

McJobless, on 29 Jan 2014 - 4:26 PM, said: Don't drive them into monsters.
You act like raiders don't do this on their own.

So true... *idea* Could the AI, when plotting its route, take into account monsters?

 

aidenpons, on 29 Jan 2014 - 4:03 PM, said: More things with vehicles - Vehicles should also be able to be scared. Of course, you don't want your mobile defence unit to be scared, but you want your trucks to be scared so they stay out of danger. And hunger in vehicles. Why do raiders never need to eat when they're in a vehicle? Perhaps hunger would decrease slower because they're doing less work, but they still need to eat!
The f**** is this?! VEHICLES ARE NOT PEOPLE. VEHICLES CAN'T GET SCARED. The drivers might be scared, BUT THEY'RE IN A VEHICLE. Tanks can flatten monsters easy. Cars can outrun them. At least, that's how I assumed people and the RRs thought. There's no real danger for the DRIVER of the vehicle to be scared about, until it's too late.

 

I was meaning that vehicles, if they're idle, will run away from monsters. If you had a crystal to pick up, sure, drive past him, but if you've got nothing to do and a monster is coming to you, do you want to just stay there? I know I'd run.

 

Why are you building fences in the middle of an attack? Why aren't you getting guns and shooting the damn monsters?! Fences are a protective measure, not an offensive weapon.

Because I can build fences in the middle of an attack. It only takes a couple of clicks, and no real time at all if games speed is 0%.

 

 

aidenpons, on 29 Jan 2014 - 4:03 PM, said: I'm surprised no-one has mentioned Power Surges. That happens when you have gazillions of power paths and then your building just lose power. Either that's a glitch - in which case, it'd be nice to not have it, or it's a feature. The problem with it being a feature is 'how do you actually fix it?' It's pretty nice, but there was no warning until Sparks yelled 'Your air supply is running low' by which time it is too late...
It was a glitch.

Quote your sources! Last time I checked the wiki page didn't know.

But there has to be some cap on buildings.. Okay, in the sandbox levels mentioned earlier, maybe not, but in come of the harder levels you'd have to do a lot of things at once. Why not? Game speed 0% solves most things.

 

So, what you're saying is that people should not be able to build however much they want? If they want to include Surge as a legitimate threat, then it needs to be completely redesigned. Simply punishing people for building big bases is not good gameplay.

Why isn't it good gameplay? And you can get around this pretty easily by building another Power Station. I don't see what's your problem with it. It's a nice little thing that needs to be at the back of your mind to complete a level/.

 

What's the point of the AI eating and having a hunger/energy bar if you can just make them do whatever anyway?

I'm not getting you here. If you're paranoid about hunger you can just permanently say 'Feed Rock Raider.' They seem to have infinite sandwiches with them.

 

 

I think that's absolutely ridiculous. The fences then become completely useless. Fences were designed to be a powerful security measure which required important resources, and as such its up to the player if they want to make the trade-off. Simply nerfing them to the point where they defend against nothing is ridiculous, and you might as well remove them from gameplay completely.

Useless? How? Ok, so the monsters can blow them up, but perhaps only with a boulder at long range? That'd provide you plenty of time to

get guns and shoot the d*mn monsters

I see what you mean by 'they'd become useless,' but perhaps not all monster types smash fences? Just because I make a generic example doesn't mean it has to hold true for everything.

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I see my ideas have caused a lot of controversy. They're ideas. They're not all going to be in the game.

UWOTM8.jpg

 

Also, it's far quicker to have a truck carry crystals than one RR who can get scared, stop for breaks, etc. If crystals are a sufficiently high priority then no monsters should be able to nom them before the truck gets there.

You didn't address Jamesster's post. You simply restated your original point.

 

So true... *idea* Could the AI, when plotting its route, take into account monsters?

That's originally why they stop for a cry. This should be something to consider, but the developers would need to built a system that allows RRs to get braver as they level up from doing jumping jacks.

 

I was meaning that vehicles, if they're idle, will run away from monsters. If you had a crystal to pick up, sure, drive past him, but if you've got nothing to do and a monster is coming to you, do you want to just stay there? I know I'd run.

So, vehicles are now sentient? I didn't know all LEGO cars were Kiff.

But seriously, maybe. They're using a different logic than the normal RRs for avoidance. I'd have to check the CFG to see if it was ever implemented. I still believe that the logic here is that Rock Raiders in vehicles don't assume they're going to be damaged and so they simply wait.

 

Because I can build fences in the middle of an attack. It only takes a couple of clicks, and no real time at all if games speed is 0%.

Game speed 0%? So, time paused?

Just because you can doesn't mean you shouldn't. That's like saying that during war, you should setup turrets directly after the enemy has begun dropping bombs from airplanes. As I said, their intention was to be defensive protection, not offensive weapons. You need to consider that gameplay needs to offer challenge, and that's one of the challenges.

 

Quote your sources! Last time I checked the wiki page didn't know.

But there has to be some cap on buildings.. Okay, in the sandbox levels mentioned earlier, maybe not, but in come of the harder levels you'd have to do a lot of things at once. Why not? Game speed 0% solves most things.

The Wiki is

A) Not the be-all-and-end-all of LegoRR knowledge (and was mostly active at a time when we still were discovering things about the game)

B) Not written by the actual developers

Power surge is a glitch, and there's no evidence anywhere to show it as a supported feature. I believe it's caused by a lack of memory, meaning that the game can't process large bases at one time (even though new systems use much larger RAM spaces, LegoRR still uses a tiny amount).

The cap on the buildings is made by limiting resources, NOT BY CAPPING THE AMOUNT OF BUILDINGS THAT CAN BE PLACED. Limiting what you can build is a stupid idea that enforces terrible logic. This is a LEGO game. It's about creativity. You should build to your heart's content and make what you want to make. Maybe it might make an interesting challenge for some missions to limit buildings and force the player to make very tough management decisions, but it's not a good overall gameplay element.

 

Why isn't it good gameplay? And you can get around this pretty easily by building another Power Station. I don't see what's your problem with it. It's a nice little thing that needs to be at the back of your mind to complete a level/.

Because it's a bug which, as I mentioned above, causes limits on the size of your base, and therefore caps creativity and the rewards for taking your time and mining resources. People should feel like they mined the entire map for hours as a positive thing by being able to create a behemoth base, not feeling like 90% of all resources on the map should go to waste.

Surge has no proper introduction or challenge associated with it, yet. It'd need to be designed in a way that it actually becomes a persistent threat (such as sapping oxygen supplies fast and injuring raiders close to the power station). It'd be pretty cool if surge was caused by a malfunctioning power station, because then you have a new gameplay challenge of making sure to keep your buildings in good repair, and it justifies surge existing.

 

I'm not getting you here. If you're paranoid about hunger you can just permanently say 'Feed Rock Raider.' They seem to have infinite sandwiches with them.

You're saying to allow Raiders to drop sandwiches at anytime so they can continue work. What that does is nerf that challenge of fighting against Raider's energy levels. Hunger is designed to stop a Rock Raider from doing the work you want them to. It shouldn't be bypassed so easily. Having them drop sandwiches adds a useless element and could potentially break animations and a number of other things.

 

Useless? How? Ok, so the monsters can blow them up, but perhaps only with a boulder at long range? That'd provide you plenty of time to get guns and shoot the d*mn monsters.

I see what you mean by 'they'd become useless,' but perhaps not all monster types smash fences? Just because I make a generic example doesn't mean it has to hold true for everything.

You should already have provided weapons to your Rock Raiders. Preparation is everything in this game.

They become useless because now nothing can be killed by the fences (that's in the game by default). Last I checked, Slugs are immune to fence effects (because they never had a death animation programmed). Monsters are the only people who get damaged by the fences. If you take that away by allowing them the ability to just destroy the fences from afar, then there's no point to them. Maybe as a random behaviour for "smart" Monsters, but certainly not all of them.

And suggesting that different monster types should...that still doesn't solve the problem. Unless you make it so that each type of monster has a different ability that needs to be thought of and countered, just making 3 types of monsters either have or not have a single ability is stupid.

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Okay, looks like this topic is up and running again even though stew hasn't been on in forever and the project is most likely dead, but whatever, might as well get my thoughts out there. I had been putting off suggesting anything until I had compiled a big list of everything that I wanted to suggest, but that won't happen so I'll just suggest things as I think of them.

*Uniforms. I believe this was to be a feature originally, but never made it. Drivers should dress like Axle, Pilots dress like Jet, etc. Of course, this causes problems with raiders who are trained in multiple areas... Having raiders who only can be trained in one area could solve that but would likely be frustrating. Other options being to use the uniform of the first thing a raider was trained as, or to simply add something to the uniform for each profession so they can stack. Or, you could have the option for a raider to "specialize" in a certain trade, only the specialized units would get the uniform and can only do that job, but does it better than unspecialized units (driving trucks faster for example....)

*Saving. I hate only being able to save after clearing a level. Some levels just take a while, and I often have to stop halfway through. Then I either have to leave the game running until I get back or quit and start over. Let us save in the middle of levels. Even if it's just a quicksave that gets deleted when you resume it later. Also, sometimes I will forget to save after a level and have to play another one before I can save again.... make the permanent save option always accessible from the main menu.

*Keeping our bases. I think the game should encourage you to build the most awesome base possible, and I think this is one of the game's most fun features. However, I usually go through levels with the minimum base possible, as at the end it all gets teleported up anyway. If the base could be kept, and reused later then it would encourage you to put more effort into building it up.

That's my two cents for the moment.

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U wot m8

I honestly cannot read that and I have no idea what it means.

You didn't address Jamesster's post. You simply restated your original point.

Yes I did address his post.

Also, it's far quicker to have a truck carry crystals than one RR who can get scared, stop for breaks, etc. If crystals are a sufficiently high priority then no monsters should be able to nom them before the truck gets there.

This should be something to consider, but the developers would need to built a system that allows RRs to get braver as they level up from doing jumping jacks.

Sometimes you don't want them braver. If you have an idle truck in one corner of the map and you're very fixed by a monster invasion in another corner you want the truck to run away.

They're using a different logic than the normal RRs for avoidance. I'd have to check the CFG to see if it was ever implemented.

Are they? They just can't get scared and plot everything else normally. Apart from the fact that they go in the center of squares, they're the same.

 

With the fences, all I was trying to say is 'how can you make them other than a OHKO weapon?' I found that sometimes I didn't even need to arm my raiders on certain levels because I could just dump fences everywhere and the monsters would just walk into them. Perhaps you could make their AI go round the fences, but usually my base is well cordoned off and it is impossible to get through. There's no point in terrorizing raiders because that's just a nuisance. Most vehicles are too fast and I'm sure there'll be a couple of defence vehicles If I have anything to say about it.

Back to the OHKO: What else can you do? Make them suffer only 10 damage instead of 100? Then a) they're useless, and b) you can build layers of them to stop them. Increase the Recharge Time? Build more layers. Make them cost more? Build them anyway. Make them cost heaps? Then they're too expensive to use effectively and just useless.

Or there could be a cap on how many fences you can build, but that'd limit creativity. If you build a large base you want to be able to defend it.

 

The other thing you could do is make them destroyable by monsters, as I said earlier. I think a boulder would take a fence out of circulation fairly easily. But then the monster has to emerge, grab a boulder, drag the boulder, blow up a fence, get another boulder, blow up the next layer and then finally walk through.  And that'd give plenty of time for your raiders to walk from the other side of the map to where the monster is. They're not so much as a defence weapon as a wall now, but as I said, only some monsters can do this and the rest would have to find something else to do while they wait. And I know what you're going to say - if they're a wall that can't keep out slugs, why not just build a wall? Because they can still stop other monsters and only some monsters can destroy them. Any monster should be able to destroy a wall.

 

(because they never had a death animation programmed)

But yes, yes they did! Shoot it and you'll see it dig into the ground. Slugs shouldn't be able to be hit by fences, I agree, but they could be stopped by walls. *idea*

Make all the monsters sort of co-op so that some smash the fences, some blow up the walls, others scare raiders so they can't do anything about fixing buildings.

Fences on their own are not enough. You want to have walls and a couple of laser turrets as your defence. *idea* You don't wont to be able to trust your defences - you want to make it hard and manual.

(the idea): Make a turret that throws Sonic Blasters! That'd be very, very, interesting.

 

Ignore my ideas for a moment and I ask you - what should be done with Electric Fences? The way I see it, this is a pretty nice solutino. If you have a better one, then post it here. This is about practically remaking LRR with improvements, so SPEAK NOW OR SPEAK 10 YEARS LATER. :P

 

You've written a fair bit about the Power Surges. Okay, it's a glitch. In Block Raiders, it might be something similar to a dam breaking - not often, and not without reason. But you still haven't answered my thingy saying 'You can build another Power Station.' In the first stages of a hard level, a Power Surge would be a real threat, but as soon as you can purify air and build another station, you're set to go. An earthquake might cause all of them to explode, but it'd also cause your dams to leak as well. And if they're co-ordinated monster attacks on with earthquakes then it'd be fun to see how long you can last... :P

All you'd need to do to restore power is fix the Power Station(s).

You're saying to allow Raiders to drop sandwiches at anytime so they can continue work.

No. I'm saying you can effectively tell one RR as 'Train as Sandwich-Carrier' and another as 'Train as Hygenist.' :P In order to do this they have to make a little pedestal for them, drop the pedestal somewhere, fill up with Sandwich-Bags ( :P), and carry them all over to the pedestal. It's basically a sort of portable Snax-U-Like shop. It could be destroyed fairly easily by a monster kicking it over.

 

 

O.T.
Hey, I saw what you posted in the Quotes topic ;P
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I honestly cannot read that and I have no idea what it means.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/u-wot-m8

“U WOT M8†is a shorthand for “You what, mate?†which is a colloquialism used by English speakers in the United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand. It is typically used in response to an incoherent proposition put forth by someone else, along the similar lines of “what did you just say?†or wat or what is this. Alternatively, the phrase can be used devoid of any context to confuse anyone that is unfamiliar with the expression.

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Yes I did address his post.

Didn't seem like it.

 

Sometimes you don't want them braver. If you have an idle truck in one corner of the map and you're very fixed by a monster invasion in another corner you want the truck to run away.

What. So MOVE THEM YOURSELF. I'm sure if they didn't have weaponry their AI would also make them move automatically if a monster got in range.

Are they? They just can't get scared and plot everything else normally. Apart from the fact that they go in the center of squares, they're the same.

Vehicles still operate as entirely different units. You can verify this with a one-way ticket to the CFG and the .ae files.

 

With the fences, all I was trying to say is 'how can you make them other than a OHKO weapon?' I found that sometimes I didn't even need to arm my raiders on certain levels because I could just dump fences everywhere and the monsters would just walk into them. Perhaps you could make their AI go round the fences, but usually my base is well cordoned off and it is impossible to get through. There's no point in terrorizing raiders because that's just a nuisance. Most vehicles are too fast and I'm sure there'll be a couple of defence vehicles If I have anything to say about it.

Back to the OHKO: What else can you do? Make them suffer only 10 damage instead of 100? Then a) they're useless, and b) you can build layers of them to stop them. Increase the Recharge Time? Build more layers. Make them cost more? Build them anyway. Make them cost heaps? Then they're too expensive to use effectively and just useless.

Or there could be a cap on how many fences you can build, but that'd limit creativity. If you build a large base you want to be able to defend it.

Or you could not change anything, since the electric fence is pretty balanced as it is. Your main threat is never the monsters, they're just a temporary distraction. The biggest problems are erosion, air depletion (which requires power), landslides and trying to find the resources. Electric Fences are designed to stop Monsters from attacking the main base, so you can focus on completing the map objectives faster.

Remember, this is a kids game.

 

The other thing you could do is make them destroyable by monsters, as I said earlier. I think a boulder would take a fence out of circulation fairly easily. But then the monster has to emerge, grab a boulder, drag the boulder, blow up a fence, get another boulder, blow up the next layer and then finally walk through.  And that'd give plenty of time for your raiders to walk from the other side of the map to where the monster is. They're not so much as a defence weapon as a wall now, but as I said, only some monsters can do this and the rest would have to find something else to do while they wait. And I know what you're going to say - if they're a wall that can't keep out slugs, why not just build a wall? Because they can still stop other monsters and only some monsters can destroy them. Any monster should be able to destroy a wall.

But how could you tell which ones can and which ones can't? You're completely nerfing their purpose. They are a DEFENSE WEAPON. This was confirmed by their introduction in the tutorials. I don't want to go walk my guys after some stupid rock monster breaking my electric fences, I just want the fence to deal with him so I can focus on killing everything else on the level and get my resources back in the fastest time possible.

 

 

But yes, yes they did! Shoot it and you'll see it dig into the ground. Slugs shouldn't be able to be hit by fences, I agree, but they could be stopped by walls. *idea*

You're absolutely incorrect. The death animation was never made, so instead when they reach low health, they automatically move back to a slimy slug hole. You can confirm this yourself by going to the CFG and .ae.

And where's this wall idea coming from? Yous aid it up there like it's a great idea, when all you've done is suggested a block which would stop Rock Raiders as well. Meaning, they can't access the base either.

Make all the monsters sort of co-op so that some smash the fences, some blow up the walls, others scare raiders so they can't do anything about fixing buildings.

Fences on their own are not enough. You want to have walls and a couple of laser turrets as your defence. *idea* You don't wont to be able to trust your defences - you want to make it hard and manual.

(the idea): Make a turret that throws Sonic Blasters! That'd be very, very, interesting.

Fantastic. You've now made gameplay overly complex and not fun. Thank you for being a brilliant game designer. In future, I'll take all my design lessons from you, since you're clearly well ahead of me.

 

Ignore my ideas for a moment and I ask you - what should be done with Electric Fences? The way I see it, this is a pretty nice solutino. If you have a better one, then post it here. This is about practically remaking LRR with improvements, so SPEAK NOW OR SPEAK 10 YEARS LATER. :P

Leave them alone, SINCE THERE IS NO PROBLEM. The Electric Fences work as was printed in the manual, and serve their purpose well. You're making a big fuss over things working as they should, and it's absolutely ridiculous.

 

But you still haven't answered my thingy saying 'You can build another Power Station.'

What?

In the first stages of a hard level, a Power Surge would be a real threat, but as soon as you can purify air and build another station, you're set to go. An earthquake might cause all of them to explode, but it'd also cause your dams to leak as well. And if they're co-ordinated monster attacks on with earthquakes then it'd be fun to see how long you can last... :P

All you'd need to do to restore power is fix the Power Station(s).

Earthquakes and dams, two things that don't exist in the game.

No. I'm saying you can effectively tell one RR as 'Train as Sandwich-Carrier' and another as 'Train as Hygenist.' :P In order to do this they have to make a little pedestal for them, drop the pedestal somewhere, fill up with Sandwich-Bags ( :P), and carry them all over to the pedestal. It's basically a sort of portable Snax-U-Like shop. It could be destroyed fairly easily by a monster kicking it over.

I was wrong about the above. THIS is the worst idea I've ever heard. I could deal with the shop, but this is just ultimately ridiculous, even for LEGO.

 

O.T.

Hey, I saw what you posted in the Quotes topic ;P
O.T.

Yeah, and now your smug attitude has completely killed that. Good work.
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Remember, this is a kids game.

With a bit of luck Block Raiders will be

 

The core demographic for the original game was children, so that is understandable. Now, we have grown up and the majority of us are 15 to 25 years old.

 

Your main threat is never the monsters, they're just a temporary distraction. The biggest problems are erosion, air depletion (which requires power), landslides and trying to find the resources. Electric Fences are designed to stop Monsters from attacking the main base, so you can focus on completing the map objectives faster.
 

I always thought that the monsters were the main threat. Erosion wasn't common and was usually solved by masses of paths (it is a bit hectic in the beginning of the game), air depletion again only happens at the beginning of the game (and in the harder levels you usually had a pre-build base, Hot Stuff being an exception), landslides only happen near mining areas (unless you're unlucky enough to have a Recharge Seam avalanche, in which case it's just a nuisance) and can be dealt with by either reinforcing or drilling corner walls, resources were pretty common around the starting area and from then it was just a case of 'strip mine everything,' but monsters you needed to keep an eye out for and put fences in the way.

That's my point of view.

 

Earthquakes and dams, two things that don't exist in the game.

 

I do have another suggestion to make, though: DAMS. I remember in the original, during one brief Chief mentions that a dam broke and flooded the base and I always wished you could actually build dams in-game. Be able to re-rout water so you have more space for your base, maybe uncover hidden resources. And (forgive me for suggesting this, we can't have it too easy) I would prefer if they occasionally broke. NOT FREQUENTLY, and NOT WITHOUT REASON, maybe because of a monster attack or seismic event, but have the risk there.

Remember Debug Key Z? If dams and earthquakes aren't in then sparks will fly.

I was wrong about the above. THIS is the worst idea I've ever heard. I could deal with the shop, but this is just ultimately ridiculous, even for LEGO.

Can you at least tell me why? Oh, and the tongue smiley was invented for a reason. Don't dismiss it just as a colon and an arbitrary letter.

 

What. So MOVE THEM YOURSELF. I'm sure if they didn't have weaponry their AI would also make them move automatically if a monster got in range.

and you're very fixed by a monster invasion in another corner

 

The death animation was never made, so instead when they reach low health, they automatically move back to a slimy slug hole. You can confirm this yourself by going to the CFG and .ae.

Okay, maybe they didn't have a death animation. But change LaserDamage to 100+ in the CFG and you should see that upon being hit they do not go to their holes and they merely dig into the ground immediately. This is what happens on my computer - maybe LRR just hates me.

 

aidenpons, on 30 Jan 2014 - 10:01 AM, said: But you still haven't answered my thingy saying 'You can build another Power Station.' What?

To reduce the risk of surges you can simply build another Power Station. That way, if one gets trashed, you still have the other.

 

But how could you tell which ones can and which ones can't?

That grey ones can and that brown ones can't. Or whatever.

 

I just want the fence to deal with him so I can focus on killing everything else on the level

Slugs excluded, you don't need to concentrate on anything else because the fence will deal with it for you. Heck, if there are no slugs you can just cover the game with fences and never arm your raiders. I could do that in LRR, but that's no fun. What's the point of doing it unless it's fun?

 

And where's this wall idea coming from? You said it up there like it's a great idea, when all you've done is suggested a block which would stop Rock Raiders as well. Meaning, they can't access the base either.

Whoever said it had to be around the base and not around the holes? Also, think of a castle. It has walls, but people can get in and out. How? Through a gate that lets them and only them through.

 

Fantastic. You've now made gameplay overly complex and not fun. Thank you for being a brilliant game designer. In future, I'll take all my design lessons from you, since you're clearly well ahead of me.
So you just want the monsters to walk into the fences? You might as well just disable them because they're no threat and you can line all the walls with fences to stop monsters.

 

Something reminded me of an idea that I'd wanted for a long time - Building bridges. You could either turn a square of water/lava into ground for ~20 bits of ore or build an actual bridge across short spaces.

 

 

And I'm leaving now before sparks start flying and one of them burns down my house.

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I always thought that the monsters were the main threat. Erosion wasn't common and was usually solved by masses of paths (it is a bit hectic in the beginning of the game), air depletion again only happens at the beginning of the game (and in the harder levels you usually had a pre-build base, Hot Stuff being an exception), landslides only happen near mining areas (unless you're unlucky enough to have a Recharge Seam avalanche, in which case it's just a nuisance) and can be dealt with by either reinforcing or drilling corner walls, resources were pretty common around the starting area and from then it was just a case of 'strip mine everything,' but monsters you needed to keep an eye out for and put fences in the way.

That's my point of view.

Monsters were only on a handful of levels. They took seconds to deal with and aside from the final level, they were barely threats. The monsters are a temporary distraction to take your attention away from the real objective. This isn't Monster Simulator 1999.

 

Remember Debug Key Z? If dams and earthquakes aren't in then sparks will fly.

Debug Keys are not legitimate gameplay features.

 

Can you at least tell me why? Oh, and the tongue smiley was invented for a reason. Don't dismiss it just as a colon and an arbitrary letter.

LITTLE PEDESTAL? TRAIN AS HYGIENIST? Yes, LegoRR has funny elements, but those are WAY over the top and add a level of complexity that's WAY not needed in this game.

I've used that smilie long before you discovered. Have you ever considered that I just might not like you very much?

 

and you're very fixed by a monster invasion in another corner

I dunno how you play the game, but I never had this happen to me...

 

Okay, maybe they didn't have a death animation. But change LaserDamage to 100+ in the CFG and you should see that upon being hit they do not go to their holes and they merely dig into the ground immediately. This is what happens on my computer - maybe LRR just hates me.

That's their designed behaviour, yes.

 

To reduce the risk of surges you can simply build another Power Station. That way, if one gets trashed, you still have the other.

Except that you have limited resources to play with on all levels. Why waste them for a glitch?

 

That grey ones can and that brown ones can't. Or whatever.

Grey ones?

Slugs excluded, you don't need to concentrate on anything else because the fence will deal with it for you. Heck, if there are no slugs you can just cover the game with fences and never arm your raiders. I could do that in LRR, but that's no fun. What's the point of doing it unless it's fun?

Because it is fun to watch 20 Rock Monsters wall into the same fence and fry themselves.

 

Whoever said it had to be around the base and not around the holes? Also, think of a castle. It has walls, but people can get in and out. How? Through a gate that lets them and only them through.

And so now you've nerf'd Slug Holes. Well done.

So, you'd also need to make a game. Let's not remember that the previous LegoRR engine doesn't have any time of attachments or extensions to connect different types of buildings to each other.

 

So you just want the monsters to walk into the fences? You might as well just disable them because they're no threat and you can line all the walls with fences to stop monsters.

And then the RR's can't dig the wall, so you can get the resources and you'll run out of power.
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Everyone relax please :( I sense a lot of negativity in this thread. 

 

I have been through something very similar with a different community. Starts out as a friendly discussion but soon the community is divided. Someone writes a long post on something, those who don't agree rip the post to pieces and write an even longer post back full of quotes and why OPs opinion is wrong, including a couple of insults. This post is again ripped apart by the guys supporting the idea.... and repeat.

 

It went as far as death threats by PM and someone almost attempting suicide. Please don't let it get that far. Please. 

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