New version of ROCK RAIDERS - update

[Lair]

Please do keep raising concerns and ideas are also welcome.

Gladly:

Our GODS game engine is designed as multiformat, we support all the machine specific hardware at a low level, but support compatability at a high level. We write the game at the high level and then it automatically works for each format.

Sounds... concerning, especially given its age. Okay, more serious points now:

For example, the Wii controller, was added as a positional device - it basically works identically to a mouse, and we can use it as or instead of a mouse. We later extended the code and added physical drivers to support specific new features of a wii remote on the PC, so other features (rotation, distance to the screen etc) all work on a PC with a Wii-remote or 4 wii-remotes.

Yeah I understand the potential, but the issue is that the Wii is far less powerful than modern computers. If you are to develop this game in the GODS format so that it would easily work for both PC and Wii, then wouldn't the Wii version have to be radically toned down for the hardware? Unless the PC version is going to be weak running as well, and that's where my concern comes in.

Plus, it's not a good example because pretty much all of the Wii games DDI has made have been pretty bad, at least from what I've seen and experienced.

If you imagine working the opposite way around, dont redesign a new game with new code on every individual format based on that systems hardware (100% rewrite), instead keep your code, and change just the lowest level code to fit the hardware (10-20% rewrite).

It still concerns me because I don't know how much is changable, and it honestly seems easier to make it a slightly different lower-end game on consoles unless I have no idea how it works. It just concerns me, though. I'm sure someone else more PC-elitist than I can go into better detail.

The only format that will probably require a lot of change in design is for facebook.

What is really the point? All of the things you listed can easily be done with the PC/whatever console version. I'd play it in that way you mentioned, if it were made such. People play FB games like that because PC games mostly aren't like that. Honestly, a Facebook version would have to basically be a different game, and it would be probably a lot lower in quality - plus, why would people buy the (much better) PC game when they can play the (worse) facebook version?

[lol username]

The only format that will probably require a lot of change in design is for facebook. I don't like the simple 2D block games on facebook, you can do a real 3D game, and thats what I want to do. What i do really find exciting is the massive multiplayer possabilities and the long term realtime daily progress, people play facebook games very differently to  'PC'  games, something they do every single day, but only for a short update time, but reguarly for days, for months, and years, this dedication can lead to a really big support and amazing worlds that can be created. Fans will be able to construct whole worlds of specifically constructed buiildings, bases, that keep going on, constantly improved and expanded, I love the concept of limitless design a universe of limitless worlds. Imagine  building your craft capable of space travel and discovering these worlds that are truely unique. that have been crafted by hand, block by block  by real people. exciting, intreaguing, a real discovery.

This sounds like an interesting concept - persistent worlds, visiting said worlds, etc... Very different from the mission based strategy of Rock Raiders though. I'm not saying that different is bad, but I am a bit confused as to your overall vision for this project is. Is it an expanded, bigger sequel to the original game? A new concept that uses elements of the original? Just how different do you expect the different versions to be?

Basically, I'd like to see a short summary of what your vision for the game is, what platforms you're thinking of putting it on, and the key differences between these platforms. We can talk about the specifics more from there; I'm just a bit confused as to what gameplay elements and ideas are going into what versions, so I'm not sure how to respond to what's being proposed here.

[Fluffy Cupcake]

I'd like to remark that when concerning modding, the system which is being modded on can be an issue. PC's always moddable. I don't know about the Wii or iOS. Android I know is.

For Wii, I know it can be via Riivolution, but that is limited to only replacing (for the most part, I know Custom Track Grand Prix for Mario Kart Wii has more files than the original game, but that took A LOT of work), and on top of that Riivo voids warranty. So perhaps custom/additional files can be read off a SD Card or USB by the game?

[StewartG]

Sounds... concerning, especially given its age

  Our engine started development over 13 years ago, pre=rock raiders, but it is constanty being updated. it is an ongoing development project, so the last version is usually only a few days old.

 

I said I would 'like to do a facebook version' unfortunately this format would be very different and it would not be part of the same engine. All the other formats are done together and will have the same capability. Although the Wii technically has the  same modding capability as the PC version, the publisher requirements of Nintendo would not allow modding. The good news is that the PC version will be totally modable. documented and modding encouraged. On the other formats, we will allow access, to what we can under publishing agreements.

 

re:

the issue is that the Wii is far less powerful than modern computers.

is the PC version going to be weak?  NO! the Wii is a less powerful format -  thats right, but the code isn't written for one format, it is all data driven. We have seperate format directories for texture. models. animations and audio,. the final compliled format, uses the folder for that hardware. So a Wii version will use lower textures, meshes, audio etc, Add in that the screen resolution will also be lower, and you already have a great saving on memory and processor power. The final version can be tweaked for draw distance, timing allowance for AI, route finding and many other simple data variables. This is how two identical code bases can work on two different formats.

[StewartG]

and add in new online multiplayer playability

Will there be different types of options for online? Like co-op (maybe even a multiplayer for story mode), competing, or both types? I'm kinda hoping for both.

Now that I think about it, outside of this (which did not involve you), has random generated maps even been discussed?

This has some of the ideas that we want to implement, for example the sandbox style world and anywhere drilling. We will have solo play with story based single play level objectives. We want to encourage players to design levels, and upload these for other players to play and rate.  For sand box levels these are usually randomly generated, but with coding to have some logic, so 'higher value' crystals are deeper or in hardwe rocks, and rocks appear as seams. The open sandbox nature means that there is no 'planned' positions or guidence, the player has free choice.. We  would bias planetoids for certain types of levels, with greater abundnce of certain resources. e.g. Metal worlds, or crystal worlds, We can have co-op levels, the players can choose to help each other or they can hinder each other. We can set 'goals' for combined or individual 'achievements'. BETA testing of these levels will be where we will want a lot of feedback from willing beta testers, which I hope yoou will all be up for this.

[Addictgamer]

the issue is that the Wii is far less powerful than modern computers.

is the PC version going to be weak?  NO! the Wii is a less powerful format -  thats right, but the code isn't written for one format, it is all data driven. We have seperate format directories for texture. models. animations and audio,. the final compliled format, uses the folder for that hardware. So a Wii version will use lower textures, meshes, audio etc, Add in that the screen resolution will also be lower, and you already have a great saving on memory and processor power. The final version can be tweaked for draw distance, timing allowance for AI, route finding and many other simple data variables. This is how two identical code bases can work on two different formats.

Hmm, yes, toning down the graphical and audio animations would certainly make running it on the wii valuable, but won't the game dynamics suffer due to the limited processing power and memory of the wii? Dwarf Fortress, for example, has almost no graphics and audio to speak of yet the game dynamics are so sophisticated and in-depth that it demands more processing power than high-end graphics heavy games like Crysis.

Personally, I don't want to lose simulation detail on the PC so that the game runs on the Wii and other consoles/devices.

I'm most concerned with the open world sandbox mode -- such a mode isn't any fun unless there's detail. The wii isn't capable of achieving all the game dynamics detail the PC can.

Maybe instead of cutting out features and in-depth game dynamics, make the open world sandbox mode exclusive to the PC and leave the other modes with less detailed game mechanics, such as mission-based gameplay like in LEGO Rock Raiders, for the wii and other consoles/devices.

I don't know how practical that is from a business viewpoint, I know you guys have to feed your families and actually make a profit on this game, but I think this might solve the problem of the PC version being weaker so that the game mechanics work on other consoles/devices.

 

 

 

BETA testing of these levels will be where we will want a lot of feedback from willing beta testers, which I hope yoou will all be up for this.

Yes! We (at least me) most definitely are looking forward to the beta testing

This project has a lot of potential. Please don't let us down!

[TheDoctor]

Dwarf Fortress, for example, has almost no graphics and audio to speak of yet the game dynamics are so sophisticated and in-depth that it demands more processing power than high-end graphics heavy games like Crysis.

This is mostly due to the fact that Toady has never optimized the code and that it remains to this day single threaded.

Regarding the Wii, while you'd have a very large installed userbase, the WiiU might be a better idea. It may not have as many installed users, but you can do so much more with the game. The Wii has a disappointing hardware resume. The WiiU tablet would be perfect for something like this. Just something to consider.

[Ayliffe]

The only concern that I currently have with everything that is being said is the idea of putting this game on the Wii. If you had launched this game a couple of years ago, then this wouldn't have been an issue, but by the time this is released the Wii will be well and truly gone. If you're thinking of still having the wiimotes then you should go with the Wii U. Stewart, you said about consoles needing to have games to be successful, well the Wii U is in need of games! Plus, the Wii U probably has more computing power than the old Wii (well, I assume it has) meaning you can have more detail than an alternative on the Wii.

[Addictgamer]

Dwarf Fortress, for example, has almost no graphics and audio to speak of yet the game dynamics are so sophisticated and in-depth that it demands more processing power than high-end graphics heavy games like Crysis.

This is mostly due to the fact that Toady has never optimized the code and that it remains to this day single threaded.

Optimized or not, multithreaded or not, the game dynamics still will never run on anything besides a PC unless he cuts out half the features, and I don't want that to happen to Rock Raiders 2.

 

Besides, making DF multithreaded will only make it Crysis*number_of_cores more processor intensive, not any less 

Multithreading just means less FPS death.

[Tauka Usanake]

Lol Addict bringing DF into the convo. I'm making a "Godwin's Law" for you.

Lol Doc complaining about threads. Not enough for Godwin though.

 

Regarding the Wii, while you'd have a very large installed userbase, the WiiU might be a better idea. It may not have as many installed users, but you can do so much more with the game. The Wii has a disappointing hardware resume. The WiiU tablet would be perfect for something like this. Just something to consider.

And I agree with half of this. The Wii U would be a better system to play on with the bonus of the tablet. I say it would be a better market too for DDI if you do it right. Too many games don't take advantage of the tablet controller and it would be best for any sensible game company to jump in on that.

[alan]

Link to the Facebook website:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Rock-Raiders-II-the-BLock-Raiders/1403583543192442?fref=ts

[Fluffy Cupcake]

I see both Wii and Wii U are mentioned on the FB page, which is what we have just been discussing about.

[StewartG]

All the formats are still up for discussion, I want to see what problems or interests people have in them, best to keep all the options open, hear everyone's view and them make an informed decision!  - I am still adding stuff to the Facebook page, but if you all want to take a look and 'LIKE' it will help us to get awareness on the project. Input, ideas, feedback,  as always very welcome.  We are at... https://www.facebook.com/pages/Rock-Raiders-II-the-BLock-Raiders/1403583543192442. I have just posted details back to RRU, hopefully this will also get more developers over to you too.

[Lair]

That's honestly pretty unprofessional, even for a facebook page. It looks to me like it's just some dumping grounds for someone just dreaming about a Rock Raiders remake and throwing out stuff about liking Rock Raiders. There's even a typo in the page name. The random pictures of minecraft and other minecraft-style games gives me the impression of uncertainty on what you want to do with this project and concern that this is going to end up as another Minecraft clone, and I have no idea what's even going on with that picture of minifig next to the Mega Man enemy and some Minecraft character skin render that isn't even from or possible in that game. The avatar being "Rock Raiders + Minecraft" especially scares me (and feels really uncreative). The thing that really got me to leave this post though was the "'LIKE' if you prefer this style of levels to a more realistic look." If this is serious, it's a pretty terrible way to decide on the art style for the project. Don't do polls off of a meaningless facebook thing, and don't take the results of this meaningless facebook thing as an answer to what you should do for the art style or anything else in the game.

 

EDIT: I just double checked, and yes indeed you are holding a poll between Minecraft ripoff and realistic terrain using facebook likes >
Please don't do that.

[ProfessorBrickkeeper]

There are definitely a few things I can suggest from what I can see of your Realistic versus. Block style graphics that definitely make me lean more towards realistic. First of all, with the realistic style it doesn't feel just like so many other games and it also allows for more freedom as far as detail levels and custom maps go while the blocky style just feels like another HD Minecraft clone which won't help to bring in perspective buyers, just think of it this way, why buy a rip off of another product when you can buy the real thing for the same price. Realistic could also probably allow for the inclusion of height map support which could mean importing and exporting terrains from designing them in other sorts if programs. And to echo Lair's concern about the whole Facebook page, I can agree with him in every respect... Also, have you guys decided on a game engine like *Ahem*Unity. I know that some engines certainly have multiplayer capabilities and that may be an ideal thing for inclusion into the game. Oh, and I just don't think that a Wii release would really be a wise thing to release at the start, Wii isn't really an ideal platform as some of us have noted that they aren't exactly the most loved platform- if you want to release it on more platforms, I'd actually suggest that you try to aim for iOS and Android as they have a larger paying community, many engines support building applications for them with minor modifications to the game project.

Just my opinion on the current matters that appear to be up for debate. *Steps down from Podium*

Oh, BTW, here is an idea... Given that there were Enviromentally themed Rock Monsters in Rock Raiders, why not perhaps have the Slimy Slug equivalents? http://www.rockraidersunited.org/gallery/image/6144-environmentally-themed-slimy-slug-concepts/

[Lair]

Can I leave my own thoughts on the block matter?

I think what I was thinking of, was walls and stuff like in LRR but made out of many "blocks" of some sort (not necessarily like minecraft, but that's the closest example). An individual Rock Raider could drill/pick/mine the wall down block by block (may go faster depending on upgrades and tools), while on the other end the Giant Drilling Vehicles could bring down dozens/hundreds of blocks all at once (aka an entire "wall" as the original LRR would see it). A Rock Raider could eventually bring down a whole wall but depending on the material it may take a while and might be easier to just drill a small tunnel through it just big enough for a Rock Raider to get through. If the wall were unstable, though, it could risk collapsing on a Raider or vehicle, so it's safest to drill the wall down but that takes a long time - your decision, player: risk it for the speed, or take a while to play it safe? Additionally, the blocks may become rubble, so drilling down a wall will leave its pieces scattered around for you to somehow clear out. It would make landslides more realistic too, since they could break down a wall as they're pieces of a wall. The floor and cieling would work this way too, so you could mine down or up, and the roof could cave in on you, so you'll have to use rienforcement wisely. I assume crystals and ore would be inside the blocks, or maybe be whole blocks in the wall if it's a seam or something.

 

So anyway, that's just my thoughts. Basically LRR with blocksandboxminecraft-inspired elements, not so much LRR + Minecraft. I don't know if it would work or if anyone cares, but oh well, I might as well leave feedback.

 

EDIT: I have no idea how water and lava would work with this, but it would make slug holes cool. Also I use wall liberally, because that basically means a fairly verticle surface. I assume that there would just be lots of patches of rock types and not literal single-unit walls like in LRR, and you could flatten out ground to make buildings or something and dirt is bad for building on but you can dig into it vertically and maybe make huge mining pits? But be careful not to fall into the lava caves below or the lava monsters will come up and wreck your brick? I guess this idea is a lot like Minecraft, but on a larger and more management/RTS scale.

 

EDIT 2: My thought on the terrain style was blocks but realistic looking so they're not perfect cubes on their own, and when they're in a wall/roof/floor they smooth out to look nice but you can still tell individual blocks a little bit. The third picture in the realistic photo set is closer to what I'm thinking of than minecraft, but not really. Maybe I'll draw something because I have no idea what I'm saying at this point.

[StewartG]

This game will have all of the classic rock raiders, right?

   We can't have official LEGO Minifigures, but we will give access to modding, I am VERY sure someone (wink wink) will produce lego like characters and rock raider meshes. If this whole venture is successful enough LEGO might actually re-release the range, and give us official support.

[StewartG]

A few years ago I had toyed around with some drawings of what RR would look like as a 1920's near-steampunk mining operation as opposed to a sci-fi interplanetary mission and liked the results.

  Please lets see the drawings, at the very least it could be a mod or if they really grab our attention it might become a main theme.

[StewartG]

I'd also like to see some of the music (especially the PS1 tracks) make a return. In don't mean recycle the same soundtrack, but just include new versions of some of the old music in the new soundtrack. As a treat for those who have played the original games.

  I was impressed with the old music, Tom from Lego arranged these, so I didn't deal directly with the musician, I can get similar styled music done - did you all like the music, should it be similar or does anyone have some radical new ideas?

[Jimbob]

I was impressed with the old music, Tom from Lego arranged these, so I didn't deal directly with the musician, I can get similar styled music done - did you all like the music, should it be similar or does anyone have some radical new ideas?

I personally loved the music in LEGO Rock Raiders. It set the perfect atmosphere, and some parts of the tracks represent the building aspect of the game beautifully, stimulating me to build and expand my base. It's a shame there were only three in-game tracks, but what great tracks they were, and in my opinion the game wouldn't have been the same without them.

 

...relating that back to your comment. Yes, I would like to hear similar music in the new game. I say similar though and not identical, as I assume it may need a bit of 'modernising', if you understand... I'm not talking dubstep remixes and all though

[Addictgamer]

I was impressed with the old music, Tom from Lego arranged these, so I didn't deal directly with the musician, I can get similar styled music done - did you all like the music, should it be similar or does anyone have some radical new ideas?

I personally loved the music in LEGO Rock Raiders. It set the perfect atmosphere, and some parts of the tracks represent the building aspect of the game beautifully, stimulating me to build and expand my base. It's a shame there were only three in-game tracks, but what great tracks they were, and in my opinion the game wouldn't have been the same without them.

 

...relating that back to your comment. Yes, I would like to hear similar music in the new game. I say similar though and not identical, as I assume it may need a bit of 'modernising', if you understand... I'm not talking dubstep remixes and all though

Personally, I would hate to hear LRR PC's music in the new game.

However, I absolutely loved LRR PS1's music.

[Lair]

   We can't have official LEGO Minifigures, but we will give access to modding, I am VERY sure someone (wink wink) will produce lego like characters and rock raider meshes.

Probably better that way. Gives you more room for creativity.

 

  I was impressed with the old music, Tom from Lego arranged these, so I didn't deal directly with the musician, I can get similar styled music done - did you all like the music, should it be similar or does anyone have some radical new ideas?

The PS1 music was okay. Way better than the PC music, but still okay. It's very situational to the level, though (panic music for lava levels, ambient for ice, etc), and if this is going to be somewhat open world in level layout that probably wouldn't work unless you programmed it to play certain music in certain themed areas. That would probably be a good idea, actually, but it might be difficult depending on how biomes and areas and stuff works. It's also too loud for this kind of game. All I can suggest is something more ambient? But a lot better made than the PC music, which was kind of... not that ambient. It was bland and sort of obnoxious on that one track with the bubble popping sounds. The PS1 music was better but isn't very ambient. Let someone more musical suggest something, I'll just say that it should be better than the PC music by far and probably not as loud and in your face as the PS1 stuff since this isn't an adventure-arcade game.

 

Also who is Tom? Both games say music was composed by John Saull, Jon Harrison, and Joseph Harper. I'd like to find out more about this.

 

 

It's a shame there were only three in-game tracks, but what great tracks they were, and in my opinion the game wouldn't have been the same without them.

what

 

 

also uh why are you posting minecraft trailers on the facebook page

[Fluffy Cupcake]

I'm not talking dubstep remixes and all though

I would hope not. Dubstep is definitely not fitting (and besides, I don't even like dubstep. ;-P).

 

As for myself, I have only played the PC version, and the music never worked. So I don't really have a say on how it made me feel.

 

and if this is going to be somewhat open world in level layout that probably wouldn't work unless you programmed it to play certain music in certain themed areas. That would probably be a good idea, actually, but it might be difficult depending on how biomes and areas and stuff works.

I was just thinking about that, and that may work fine.

[Antillies]

The PS1 music was okay. Way better than the PC music,

 

It's a shame there were only three in-game tracks, but what great tracks they were, and in my opinion the game wouldn't have been the same without them.

what

Couldn't disagree more.  Very much prefer PC music and I agree with Jimbo.

[Jimbob]

Personally, I would hate to hear LRR PC's music in the new game.

However, I absolutely loved LRR PS1's music.

I suppose I hadn't given thought to how different the genre is of this new game... Yeah, I guess it wouldn't fit so well. But I still liked the style, I think it would be nice carry it on to the new game. I can't comment on the PS1 music as I haven't listened to it.

 

It's a shame there were only three in-game tracks, but what great tracks they were, and in my opinion the game wouldn't have been the same without them.

what

What? I love the music in the game. I don't think that other music tracks could have done as well.